Game too easy - solo run possible?

[SwampDragon]

I finally got around to trying out the extended edition, so I've just completed HK for the second time (last time was nearly 4 years ago).

I played a really badly optimised rigger/decker/SMG-expert with terrible charisma, and I still didn't use a single med kit. The whole thing was a cake walk because your team is just too damned good. I've now started the second campaign and during the first few encounters all the cops died before they could even shoot back. I am really not enjoying being this OP - we're Shadowrunners not superheroes.


Have any of you tried solo runs for the second campaign? Is it viable? If not, what kind of self-imposed nerfs have you used to make the game more challenging?

[SwampDragon]

PS. I've heard that money is supposed to be tight on Honk Kong (which sounds cool in theory), but I finished the first campaign with a Fairlight and grade3 progs, S-rated drone, best SMG money can buy, 10 armour (2 from dermal), and fully cybered. Not sure what else I could buy, even if I wanted to - I've actually ditched the armour and gone back to trench coat because it looks better.

[RexEviL]

It should be, drone really makes the game easier. I finished the game with ballistic suit 4 armor. Fully cyber + slimcase 10? the one with 75 damage and 25 ongoing. I finished it on normal but it became really easy after 3rd AP. Money is alright. I'll try hard now. A mix of cyber, pistol, decker, shaman and adept. I want to try random build.

[fauxpas]

Meh, if you think the game is too easy; simply don't spend all of your karma.

[SwampDragon]

I agree about drones. They are very powerful for one thing, but they're also a decoy target which makes them amazing ... You can pretty much negate an entire enemy turn as they try and kill your drone, even if it is not activated.

Cyber and shaman don't mix so well, but really you can just do whatever you want and your team will ultimately carry you. I've only ever played Hard, but I can't imagine it being THAT different from your normal run. It's a fun build and that's what matters.

On the subject of solo runs:
I am halfway through the 'underwater lab' mission on second campaign, and to be honest, it's really hard with this character. I do think it is totally doable if you built for it though. Maybe OP combinations like drones and assault rifles, although the need for decking is going to hamper the build somewhat.

[Zadok]

Solo! <3

Solo'd both DF & HK + bonus. DF allows for a lot of different builds - basically all (non-party) content is accessible in a DF solo. As for HK: I wouldn't be too sure about that. Perhaps it is possible to solo every class, but I found certain "bottlenecks" pretty rough. Since I used solutions that do not work with just any build I am not yet sure how narrow a path it really is.

As for the difficulties (Do you want to know? You probably know already...): It makes a huge difference whether or not you do your party's loyalty runs (which cannot be solo'd). Two runs done means unlocking Tier 2 gear - pretty easy IF you join Is0bel for the DeckCon... Else that 2nd run is hard, yet possible. Also the tower (unless you bring Is0bel and a non-decker main) and the bonus campaign (the final!) are tough, plus a few build dependent individual bottlenecks I imagine.
Besides the Ninja I came up with two builds I am confident in. That is to say: I'd expect most builds to face a wall at some point. It's always the bottlenecks.

So yeah: It is definitely possible.
While I wrote an extensive DF Solo Guide my HK Solo Guide is just a breakdown of my own build (Ninja) and some general hints. Now my HK build felt like "the perfect solo build", but let's be honest: That's what every successful build feels like. In any case I've solved situations thinking: "How on earth would any other build solve this?!?"

Let me know if you follow through with it!

Post Scriptum:

Originally posted by fauxpas:

Meh, if you think the game is too easy; simply don't spend all of your karma.

It is a bit boring honestly, but my Tourist (0 karma char, played with 2 helpers) was about 2/3 through DF when I lost interest. It's also possible and generally easier than a solo. I'd estimate the crew's power to almost double that of a good solo build in most situations (DF). Didn't try HK though. For a tourist the loyalty runs are hardest obviously and can be very challenging.

[bunny de fluff]

The game will be as difficult as the build mistakes you made spending karma on the wrong things. The more mistake you made building up your pc, the harder it gets.

[SwampDragon]

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

The game will be as difficult as the build mistakes you made spending karma on the wrong things. The more mistake you made building up your pc, the harder it gets.

I believe I did spend karma on the wrong things. However, even if you spent zero karma I think the majority of the game would be fairly easy, because of your uber-team! Zadok mentioned a "Tourist" playthrough which I think illustrates this point, but that would also be quite boring. I love this game and I love this setting, but I also like a challenge.

Originally posted by Zadok:

It is definitely possible.
While I wrote an extensive DF Solo Guide my HK Solo Guide is just a breakdown of my own build (Ninja) and some general hints. Now my HK build felt like "the perfect solo build", but let's be honest: That's what every successful build feels like. In any case I've solved situations thinking: "How on earth would any other build solve this?!?"

Wow! Thanks for writing that guide. You've obviously put a lot of thought in to your ninja build and I can see how effective that's going to be. I am especially impressed you managed to complete the second campaign with it. The thing is, now I am going to have to try a different build because you've already proven that build works.
"How on earth would any other build solve this?!?" - Challenge accepted.

You mentioned briefly about auto-reload grenade launcher to carry you through early game, and that is the exact idea I was toying with. I had also got it in to my head that I would need at least 5 Decking (I am impressed you managed to crack the Prosperity Tower solo and with a level 3 deck!!), so if I were to invest in decking it made sense to somehow make use of drones, especially considering drones (vents) and drone control can make some missions significantly easier. Now I am rethinking that. Skimping on decking opens up more options.

Hmmm. Food for thought.

I am going to complete the second campaign quickly (I don't want to abandon it) with my current team and then I will give this a shot. Thank you very much for the inspiration!

[Zadok]

Originally posted by Wolf:

The thing is, now I am going to have to try a different build because you've already proven that build works.
"How on earth would any other build solve this?!?" - Challenge accepted.

Awesome! Finally another solo'ist ^^
I wish you the best of luck Wolf!

[SwampDragon]

Can we talk builds? I would like to hear your thoughts.


Drones:
In your ninja build you have invested in totems and some magic, but is that really necessary and could you not use drones instead - thus saving on charisma entirely?

For example, a drugmule drone can give you extra AP for one fight and boost your armour for at least two fights at no AP cost to yourself. The added bonus is that it will draw 75% of all enemy fire! So with this in mind is it really worth getting, say, Fish and Haste? I know seeing auras and summoning can be very useful in some situations, but so can having a drone.
Obviously heal can be useful but in solo it's not always going to help - unless the horrible crit you received just so happened to be the LAST hit you received. More often than not your last hit will be an SMG round or 2 HP from being on fire (etc). Could a few points in to bio be a better choice?

Ranged weapons:
Before I read your guide my first idea for a solo build (the build I am playing with now - although I might restart) is all about abusing that early grenade launcher and auto-loader. The principle is that one does not have to invest in weapon skills until later on and so karma gets pumped in to Body, CA, Quickness and Ranged.
But where to go from there?

Whip: There's good synergy with CA - which you already need for wired reflexes. It doesn't require weapon skills - which is amazing. And lastly it doesn't require a weapon slot so you can have a deck, a drone, and a grenade launcher. All this sounds great, but is a whip going to cut it late game?

Rifle: You can get it for free. Fairly powerful with OP flush. Panther already lined up for second campaign. However, it requires rifle skill investment, has no AOE options and only truly shines when fighting set piece engagements and against dug in enemy positions. With the mobility of play required in solo I am almost tempted to say ... SMG.

SMG: The SMG you can obtain in the second campaign is seriously good with data-jack and alpha eyes - seriously good! You need the mobility to always be able to outflank targets, but if you can, it easily out-damages the Panther against single targets. the problem is there is no middle ground - there's no free SMG's and the SMG's you get throughout the first campaign are just not that good.



Errm, I've said enough for now. I'll wait and see if you are interested in this sort of discussion before I waffle on more. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above though. ;)

[Zadok]

Originally posted by Wolf:

Can we talk builds?

I'd be delighted to do so, yes!

Originally posted by Wolf:

Drones:
For example, a drugmule drone (...).

Indeed I have always been intrigued by the drugmule - it ought to be a splendid investment! Jazz is pure gold. That said it IS an investment, because you'd like it early and it costs money + karma. 1750 is quite a bit, especially early on. It might delay Wired Reflexes for instance. IF you want Wired Reflexes early the 11 Karma (INT 1->3 + DC 0->3) for drones might matter as well. While you'll need INT anyway you'll probably want it earlier for the drone. Mind the enemy only throws grenades if he can hit multiple targets. Usually a solo'ist is "immune" - not if you bring a drone though. Unless you keep a distance between drone & runner ofc.
Bottom line: It may well be worth it IF you play around it properly. That should be possible, but it is not as easy to use as are Wired Reflexes or the Armor spell. It is a tool you need to use wisely. The fact it can be sacrificed and always returns to your stash is a great boon. Way more so its drugs, plus the ability to use vents - no doubt! I've considered it as well and expect it to be a viable option. One I did not try though - it's your call ;)

Originally posted by Wolf:

So with this in mind is it really worth getting, say, Fish and Haste? (...)
Could a few points in to bio be a better choice?

Basically yes & yes, though that's a bit too simple an answer.
As mentioned in my guide I don't believe Medkits to be all that cost effective. Not suffering damage is the way! Bio is mainly worth it to see enemy HP imo. +5 HP per kit is nice ofc, but I've always regarded it as a mere bonus. It's fine, but it won't be a decisive factor I believe.
Fish and Haste can be skipped on, but I'd always want to use my spell slots. It would be a waste not to - unless you've got good reasons to save the karma. Also the Armor spell used to be the most powerful spell in the game (the most cost effective spell in DF I mean) and it is still very strong despite multiple nerfs. One of the harshest nerfs is the bonus campaign's armor shred shots, plus AP damage: You can't just tough it out. Which is exactly why Dodge is so good. Also enemies shoot what's easiest to hit, so Dodge usually leads to them attacking s/o else. In a solo it is fully effective. That's unless there's a drone to shoot... In fact it might be hard to keep a drone alive long enough to use all its drugs if you've got Dodge.
I'd consider Totem, Haste/Armor, drones and Bio {i]after[/i] getting my core build's idea straight. Core build - that's your main offense as I see it. Those are buffs - which are useless if there's is no core to be buffed. You need high damage first of all and that always costs a lot of karma. The Qi Adept build in my guide for instance has no totem, nor Conjuring. I'd love to have those, but it is an expensive core build, already has Qi spells and can't afford a totem.

Ultimately I am with you: Drone + Bio can be compared to Totem + Conjuring. It's cheaper even (since you need INT for Decking anyway) and serves a similar purpose, if in a rather different fashion.

Let's make this multiple posts, since I enjoy this and take my time for each step.

[Zadok]

So now for the weapon options - that is to say: The core build.

Originally posted by Wolf:

Whip: There's good synergy with CA - which you already need for wired reflexes. It doesn't require weapon skills - which is amazing. And lastly it doesn't require a weapon slot so you can have a deck, a drone, and a grenade launcher. All this sounds great, but is a whip going to cut it late game?

I'm not entirely clear on the whip, but so far I am not entirely sold on the idea either. My guess: It only makes sense if you've got no other options to flush the enemy. The 14 dmg are fixed as I understand it and there's no special attacks? If that is so it is a utility item and not a major damage source. Like Throwing Knives it allows maneuvering due to the melee option to move + attack for 1 AP, which is great. Its range isn't really an advantage in that regard however: "Real" melee makes the best use of that feat.
That said it doesn't require special skills, so it isn't too big an investment. 14 karma for Body 7 & CA 7 would make sense. Why not have some extra utility? Only that I wouldn't expect it to work wonders - just another tool I reckon.

Originally posted by Wolf:

Rifle: You can get it for free. Fairly powerful with OP flush. Panther already lined up for second campaign. However, it requires rifle skill investment, has no AOE options and only truly shines when fighting set piece engagements and against dug in enemy positions.

Rifles shine with Rifle 3 for Burst & Full Auto - for 6 karma it's the cheapest weapon skill you can get. Burst always has 90% crit, FA always has 0% crit. Only snipers need more than Rifles 3. Also you don't need loads of AoE, since you can't always use it anyways. I used AoE grenades & Knives in early fights and had one melee AoE attack per turn later on (and ofc I did not use it every turn). A tad more would have been nice, but being able to kill at least one enemy in one turn is much more important.
Perhaps a standard assault rifle can't keep up with the more late game oriented damage options in the bonus campaign, but that's only fair. After all it is extremely powerful up until then. Also Burst & FA have no cooldown. Many other options (most notably powerful dmg spells) can't really make sense of high AP boosts (Wired Reflexes + Jazz + Cram + Haste...). A rifle can! Its damage scales indefinitely with AP.
It might even be worth it to invest the 6 karma regardless of what you are planning to use in the final fight. What counts against it is your grenade/loader managing the early game anyway, so Rifles would kind of lose their early advantage.

Originally posted by Wolf:

SMG: The SMG you can obtain in the second campaign is seriously good with data-jack and alpha eyes - seriously good! You need the mobility to always be able to outflank targets, but if you can, it easily out-damages the Panther against single targets. the problem is there is no middle ground - there's no free SMG's and the SMG's you get throughout the first campaign are just not that good.

Unfortunately Kyopo Von Elsass' Weapons Guide doesn't list bonus campaign weapons, so I've got to trust you on that SMG's power. As you mentioned early SMG's don't sport high damage. There is however a SMG to find: The "Wild One" on the Whistleblower run. Perhaps not the best, but it's free. Generally I'd look out for armor shred & damage boosts, since the SMG's rate of fire is perfect to use them. Spellcasting 5 for the no-AP armor shred might be a bit expensive, but the Scorpion totem might deserve consideration in that case.
Honestly: My experience with SMGs is rather limited, so I don't want to lose myself in idle speculation. I'd be keen to hear about it though!

[SwampDragon]

Aha! Great input. Thank you.

Drones:
Like you, I decided to do DeckCon second run which brought me to the crunch.
I couldn't resist buying that (totally awesome-looking) trench coat from Whampoa, so it was a choice between wired reflexes OR drone and auto-loader.
With this build, at this particular point in the game, I needed the auto-loader - so wired reflexes was already somewhat delayed, and having a drugmule on the third run (The Dig) really helped. Rooster Lo was doable with the help of consumables.

I actually need to rethink my next run because a certain vampire lady just kicked my ****.

Whether drones are going to work out or not in the long run, I'm still not sure. I will let you know how it goes. You are right about the monetary investment, and it's already put me a few runs 'behind'. It's only 5 karma though, because I raised decking to 3 in order to access the Kowloon paydata and to pass Whampoa decking tests (etc). Also decking 1 matrix hit chance was just ... horrible.

Bio:
"+5 HP per kit is nice ofc, but I've always regarded it as a mere bonus"
I think I agree with you. I didn't pay enough attention to the mere 5 HP gains. I always raise Bio to 2 for the health bars, but this time I bumped it to 3 to get a perfect Whampoa run (I wasn't ready to fight at that point). Perhaps a small mistake there.

Dodge:
"Which is exactly why Dodge is so good. Also enemies shoot what's easiest to hit, so Dodge usually leads to them attacking s/o else. In a solo it is fully effective. That's unless there's a drone to shoot... In fact it might be hard to keep a drone alive long enough to use all its drugs if you've got Dodge."
This is interesting. I am so very unsure about what Dodge ACTUALLY does that I have been hesitating about whether to put anything in to dodge at all. Browsing the forums will give you the impression that Dodge doesn't actually reduce hit chance... However, I am convinced that Dodge must reduce enemy hit chance but by what amount I have no idea. Do you know? If you get Dodge to 11, would that make you nearly impossible to hit ...?
Back to point: I agree a drone set to follow will always attract grenades, but for this reason I am tempted to get a magnet arm. If a good portion of the enemy are throwing grenades each turn, well you can see where I am going with this. I think negating enemy turns is the most important thing drones can bring to the table?

Whip:
"I'm not entirely clear on the whip, but so far I am not entirely sold on the idea either."
I think I agree. I haven't actually used it so I was pretty unclear on details but I don't think it's going to work for this purpose.

Rifles/SMG's:
I have never got around to playing a strong rifle build - I've just found other builds to be more interesting. So, really, I don't know what I am talking about. Most of my experience comes from using Duncan and he has terrible ranged skill. Perhaps rifles are a better choice after all.

I can't tell you if the end game SMG is really that good because my opinion is largely subjective; I like SMG's, and besides, you are far more knowledgeable than I am.
Objectively speaking: The best SMG can fire 3 times for 1AP, with crit chance at around 50%(with 5 SMG skill). So in one round of combat that's x12 Str13 shots including ~6 crits - all at around 90% to hit with high ranged skill.
I was comparing this to Duncan with a Panther.

[Zadok]

Now I don't know just how powerful Dodge is exactly, but it might actually be an exploitable way to nigh invulnerability. It is way less effective in party play after all. In any case "it felt" like my Dodge 4 made a significant difference.
I wonder: Does the console allow modifying enemies? If so you could add Dodge to an enemy's skills and check the difference.

That SMG does really sound very powerful. AoE & flush go a long way to top it off. Any non-crits will be very weak ofc, given the high average armor later on. Don't you get way higher crit with bursts? I never used SMGs tbh.

All in all your build ideas sound really solid! I'm really looking forward to hearing about your progress :)

[SwampDragon]

First campaign complete!

The build is extremely effective all the way up until Prosperity Tower. It was so effective that I still had 56 unspent karma by the end-game boss!

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1700955052

'The Decker'
(tech specialist)


Body: 5
CA: 5

Strength: 1

Quickness: 7 (8)
Ranged Combat: 7

Intelligence: 7
BioTech: 3
Decking: 7
Drone Control: 3

Willpower: 1

Charisma: 2
(Gang)

Cyberware:
Datajack
Wired reflexes
Auto-reloader
Magnet arm
Mk1 hydraulic jack
Alpha eyes

Equipment:
Grenade launcher
Drugmule
Fairlight Excalibur


Notes:

Decking:
I am so utterly impressed you managed with such low Decking! It was driving me crazy! I ended up pumping karma in to it quite early on, and I must say I never once regretted it. Having strong Decking makes some missions soooo much easier. Prosperity Tower would have broken me without it! Seriously... how did you even do that with Decking 3!?

Grenade launcher + Auto-loader:
Just... OP.

Drone:
Very useful early game, insanely so! It gives you free drugs and it crawls in to vents, but most importantly: it sits in cover or kites enemies around the map absorbing a huge amount of agro.

Saved Karma:
I wanted to keep my options open for the second campaign. Obviously grenade launcher is not going to work because every man and his dog has a magnet arm. 'The Decker' build only uses karma needed to get to end-game. The remaining karma can be spent on anything from weapon specs to better drones. However, I ended up spending most of it on Dodge (see below).

Dodge:
"I wonder: Does the console allow modifying enemies? If so you could add Dodge to an enemy's skills and check the difference."

I have no idea how to use the console, and to be honest I don't want to know. I did kind of test it though: The last boss fight (when you fight the Yama King in another dimension) absolutely kicked my ****! My usual kiting strategy wasn't working and my drone was long dead. I reloaded that fight COUNTLESS times until I decided to experiment. I ended up spending all that karma to get my Dodge from 0 to 8 - and then beat it first try.
Dodge is very, very good it seems. I will let you know how it goes in the extended campaign.

[Zadok]

Congratulations!

Sounds like Dodge is your ticket... Fish to max it out? ^^
Remains to be seen which weapons do the trick. On track for the SMG I reckon?

In any case your high Decking should make it a lot easier to get the Panther. I knew it wasn't required for my build, but I gave it a shot anyway and aborted after a few attempts...

*Actually I wonder whether Dodge works like a "reversed combat skill", subtracting an absolute ~5% per point. That would be extremely powerful and highly exploitable ofc, as it would make you literally unhittable to max it out. It should subtract a relative amount (a % of the enemy's toHit), but I wouldn't be too sure yet. Fish's description seemed to point towards the exploit, but it can be read both ways. There could be diminishing returns. It could also be capped, but I doubt it (as it would be a crude "noob trap"). What's your estimate regarding the enemy's toHit with Dodge 8? Is it close to zero?
Wouldn't put it past HBS to have it exploitable - after all Armor is (or at least was in DF), potentially reducing dmg to zero up until late. Then again the maximum "permanent" dmg reduction of 17 (w/ active Totem) would still allow counterplay with high damage attacks, crits and Strip Armor. 99% Dodge wouldn't leave any openings, would it?
If that worked the DF final would be the best fight in the series after all. At this point I consider the DF final and the bonus campaign's final to be even. Both "almost hopeless" in a solo that is ^^