counter steering....

[El1gy]

I still cant believe that in years of making Motorcycle games, Milestone still dont understand how a bike turns at speed.... Turn the bars of a motorcycle into the corner like this game portrays and you'll wake up in the emergency room.

While I'm at it.... Nice being able to edit the riding style but how come in 1st person view the riders head stays almost stuck on the bike's centreline.

Basic, basic stuff that relegates this title to the realms of crap to pass a few minutes and nothing more.

[ScruffyBamboo]

I don't think any motorcycle game has ever actually implemented proper counter-steering, since it's so counter-intuitive for most people. Some motorcyclists don't actually use it (even though they should). Telling people they first need to steer the other way to dip the bike in the direction they want to go is something that's hard to understand unless you've actually driven one, so I can understand why they'd omit it.

As for the head position in first person, you have a valid point, although I think what you propose should be an option, not the default. It can be disorienting enough to play in 1st person with all the banking (most people are used to driving cars in video games, where the horizon stays level) - having the head move around as well could be nausea-inducing for some. But why not have it as an option for the hardcore?

[The Wizard of Woo]

Originally posted by ScruffyBamboo:

I don't think any motorcycle game has ever actually implemented proper counter-steering, since it's so counter-intuitive for most people. Some motorcyclists don't actually use it (even though they should). Telling people they first need to steer the other way to dip the bike in the direction they want to go is something that's hard to understand unless you've actually driven one, so I can understand why they'd omit it.

As for the head position in first person, you have a valid point, although I think what you propose should be an option, not the default. It can be disorienting enough to play in 1st person with all the banking (most people are used to driving cars in video games, where the horizon stays level) - having the head move around as well could be nausea-inducing for some. But why not have it as an option for the hardcore?

As a matter of pedantry I must point out that everyone that can ride a motorcycle already counter steers. If they did not the bike would not turn, whether they are consciously aware that they are doing so is another matter, but if you can make the bike lean at any speed then you are already countersteering. It will not lean (much if at all) without input from the bars even if you jump up and down on the pegs ;).

The only reason it seems otherwise is because pitching your shoulders into a corner automatically countersteers (pushes the inside bar and pulls the outside bar). When I ride I don't think in terms of steering away I think in terms of pitching my upper body in, e.g. I want to turn left so I push my upper body to the left and use the weight to pull on the right hand bar and push the left outwards.

The only difference "concious counter steering" really makes is it lets you understand your own body mechanics better and thus be more efficient/faster. i.e. knowing that its physically pushing and pulling the bars that makes you lean & not ur own bodyweight makes it easier to tweak your style to get better stronger steering inputs. But it's nothing really revolutionary to how you steer the bike, more like an evolution.

As for the game itself, I think it does simulate counter steering for the reasons above (& If you watch the bars in 1st person view they are indeed "counter steering" already). You steer by leaning & counter steering is how you lean. It'd feel really alien & unintuitive to me if I had to push the stick the opposite way to lean, and not representative of how it feels to steer a real bike anyway.

There is in fact a bespoke Bike handlebar controller on the market and it also does not represent counter-steering inputs because outside of a real bike it feels really unintuitive and inauthentic. Instead they chose to represent lean as in practice this is how most bikers think even if they do know how to counter steer consciously. (the designer himself said that the counter steer prototypes just felt wrong without a physical bike moving underneath you and so were abandoned)

If however you are still desperate to have reversed controls then you can always reverse the x axis ;)


As for the head options, I agree with everything you've said scruffy although if you look carefully you can see the helmeted on board view already does pitch into corners subtly which combined with moving my own eyes to the apex/vanishing point works just fine for me. To have more movement than that would require some kind of body presence (i.e. track IR or occulus) without it becoming stupid and uncontrollable. It's on the borderline of moving too much already IMHO.

[Player 1]

Originally posted by ScruffyBamboo:

I don't think any motorcycle game has ever actually implemented proper counter-steering, since it's so counter-intuitive for most people. Some motorcyclists don't actually use it (even though they should). Telling people they first need to steer the other way to dip the bike in the direction they want to go is something that's hard to understand unless you've actually driven one, so I can understand why they'd omit it.

As for the head position in first person, you have a valid point, although I think what you propose should be an option, not the default. It can be disorienting enough to play in 1st person with all the banking (most people are used to driving cars in video games, where the horizon stays level) - having the head move around as well could be nausea-inducing for some. But why not have it as an option for the hardcore?

try the game GP-Bikes !! that game has everything you want

[El1gy]

Been playing a bit of GP bikes, however til they fix the low speed bugs its a pain in the ass.

I do a LOT of track riding, and its imperative if you want to turn the bike quickly to actively counter steer it, though for reasons already posted above yeah its intuitive for most riders.

I disagree that Ride animates countersteering, it looks to me that when I turn the bike the bars turn in the same direction... Maybe I am just missing the initial push or something. Motogp14 does the same, turn the bike left, bars turn left. I don't want to actually have to counter steer, that would be nigh on impossible with a gamepad, it'd just be nice if the animation was correct.

Otherwise, its a fun game :)

[Edge_Master]

Hooah.

I've messed around a bit with counter steering my bike irl.

If you explain it to people, especially those who don't ride, or have just started, it's a difficult concept to understand, but when you stuff around with it, it makes sense.

[Edge_Master]

By the way, flick of the wrist is a great book to read to understand counter steering, though I recommend the movie of flick of the wrist.

[El1gy]

I dont have a problem with doing it, everyone that rides a bike does it instinctively, I have a problem with the game not rendering the action. Twist of thw wrist is great, I recommend 'Motovudu' once you get onto more advanced track riding.

[Seiran800]

Originally posted by FXAA™_User:

By the way, flick of the wrist is a great book to read to understand counter steering, though I recommend the movie of flick of the wrist.

I think you mean "Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code. And yes a very good book!

PS: Oh El1gy wrote it allready.

PPS: I do not know if everyone who rides a bike does counter steering by instinct. My guess is, beginners or people just cruising around let the bike do it for them. They just do weight transfer and do no input to the handlebar. Then it happens automatically, which is way slower in terms of turning.

[El1gy]

Everyone does it. Its physics. This weight transfer stuff isnt what turns the bike, it just helps a little. Its demonstrated clearly in twist of the wrist, which is great but needs updating as a lot of his theories are a bit 80s... with modern brakes and suspension things have moved on a bit.

[MarcusReed]

Check my Ride game photos, I can get the counter steering animation using pro bike physics and getting on the throttle early out of a corner. But one thing to keep in mind ,the subtle counter steering movements you acual do on a bike or professional riders do racing would be next to impossible to see watching a replay.

GP Bike is the closest motorcycle sim I have ever played, but you need a steering wheel to really controller the bike, a controller without force feedback makes the game a pain in the ass to play. Still fun tho.

[El1gy]

Yeah agree GPbikes is top notch, I just find it a bit flaky at low speeds, exiting the pit box and the like. It needs some form of damping on the controller til you get the bike moving. I think that animation you are getting is the back stepping out and therefore the bike is crossed up, countersteering is on the entry to the turn.. I have it on pro physics as well and when i nudge the stick to turn in, the damn bars turn into the corner noticeably. Maybe I'm just being fussy, it is a fun game but little things like that are pretty basic to motorcycling and irritating when they are wrong.

[SorD]

Hello

At some point i think that counter steering should be simulated better on video games and back then I started to create my own motorbike simulation. Here is some points that I noticed with simulation.

It was built on existing general game physic engine but I get still pretty nice result for weekend project. First we need to ask what is input? In car games its valid option to choose that input is direct orientation of wheel. If we made same at motorcylce game it would lead situation that you have to first counter steer and then turn to right direction... sounds realistic but not work on real life since if you keep just your input center... you know what happens when you try drive bike with handlebar welded to center... not gona work. Things might be difrent on force feedback device that would follow real handle bar orientation but to work it propably would need more strong motor than they usually are since you are not supposed to "turn it" just little bit "force it" and I doubt little bit that still need tweaking to work but this maybe could be very cool.

Ok so in real world geometry of front bars causes that orientation of handlebar is right to keep bike upright. So next and more realistic iteration is that input is moment to handlebar which cause some little rotation from "optimal orientation". So at begin of turning you counter steer. During turn front bar geometry set orientation that tried to rise bike back to upright so you needed to keep slight counter steering. Or at least on my simulation and if I remember right that happen on real world too, but propably you can keep it turning with weight shifting too...

Now actually what happens is that with this real counter steering modeling you get pretty normal feeling for bike just like in many games but inputs are just inverted. Personally I can't notice big difrence between motogp series and this simulation if I invert input so that they work to same directions. Of course my version was rought, simulation had infinite friction, there wasn't anything to prevent over turning on your side and simulation was very unstabile on non-planar roads etc. Anyway its allowed to test basic turning pretty well.

So whole point is that you cannot say is simulation tweaked or is it based on real counter steer modeling based on input directions. As game developer I would for sure make inputs work so that left is left and right is right on default with any simulation style. Anybody can still change their controls if they want.

Ps. I abandoned that project since Ride was just announced.

[♡ _GneevS_ ♡]

Can anyone explain me why riding a bicycle does not require countersteering while riding a motorcycle does? Different laws of physics apply?

[Paf Le Loup]

Because thats not the same weight, and speed

[SorD]

"lol dud" its not stupid question at all. There is actually second thing related to turning: when you turn left -> contact point of front wheel move to right from center line of bike -> which cause moment that force bike to lean left. Difrence is there that for spesific angle of handlebar momentum from contact point movement is constant "A" while momentum caused by counter steer is "B x speed". So with spesific angle of handle bar (turning left) with low speed contact point transfer is dominating -> bike really lean left. When speed is hight -> counter steering effect is dominating -> bike lean right.

And since bike is very unlinear system I think that boundary of these effect is related to angle of handlebar (and geometry of bike and speed) = domination depends how aggressively you turn. In real life I remember that common boundary speed is roughtly 20-40kmh but like I say its not unambiguous.

I am not 100% have these two effects difrent relationship to mass but I play for sure and don't take a stance about that. Anyway it should be a fact that effecting things are at least geometry of bike and speed. There is also gyroscopic moments (related to speed and mass of spinning parts of bike) but I think that they are mostly meaningless for selection which is dominating direction (effecing only how fast bike response but not for direction).

Nasty eh? There is long time when I studied these so feel free to correct if you see mistake.