OTTOMANS NOT ARAB

[Basat The Wanderer]

why all paradox games make turkish first racist then fix with patch, in hoi4 they made kayseri and ankara desert first, then fix. in eu4 ottoman building have same graphics with yemen, now leader of ottman looks like someone else and his daughter wearing hijab why man why evrytime we have scream we are not arab.

[Inquerion]

Originally posted by Basat The Wanderer:

why all paradox games make turkish first racist then fix with patch, in hoi4 they made kayseri and ankara desert first, then fix. in eu4 ottoman building have same graphics with yemen, now leader of ottman looks like someone else and his daughter wearing hijab why man why evrytime we have scream we are not arab.

Short answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Long answer: Paradox knows that Turkish players will buy Turkish DLC for 39.99$ just to fix that stuff.

[AdahnGorion]

That is because the Turks are (due to how long they have been there) considered a Levant country. It is important to note, that the Leventine culture group are not just Arabs btw...

It would most likely change gameplay a lot, if there was a distinct Turkic group that included Ottomans, but I would also favour that.

[kronos]

they are the same culture and race

[aloup.saipuol]

IIRC Turks were in the Levantine group in EU4 mostly for game balance reasons. The AI is very interested in provinces in its culture group. In older versions of EU4, when there was an Oghuz culture group with Turkish, Azeri and Turkmeni in it, the Ottoman AI focused on those provinces and snaked to Central Asia while ignoring the Levant and Egypt utterly. So the devs went with the current solution, ie Levantine Turks, so that the Ottoman AI expands somewhat historically.

There are several other cultures in similar situations. Breton should be Celtic rather than French, Basque its own group instead of Iberian, Albanians their own group instead of South Slavic... But too small groups are generally undesirable gameplay-wise (imagine playing as isolate Basque Navarra with your cultural union over a grand 2 provinces)

[AdahnGorion]

Originally posted by kronos:

they are the same culture and race

Incorrect, they are not the same culture (I don´t believe in race theory, so wont debate that topic)

[ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ]

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

Originally posted by kronos:

they are the same culture and race

Incorrect, they are not the same culture (I don´t believe in race theory, so wont debate that topic)

You don't need to believe that race theory is wrong, you can know.

All humans share the same Genotype which means we are all one race.

What makes people different though is the unique expressions of the Genotype which is what we call Phenotypes.

A Turk is of one phenotype and an Arab has a different phenotype. But genotypically they are identical just as every other human is identical genotypically. But because genes are expressed differently, they appear as different "races" when they in fact are the same.

This is how you get white people, black people and various other unique traits of the various and diverse human ethnicities. It's just genes being activated and deactivated in a particular order that leads to a different phenotype.

EDIT: This is why "racial supremacy" is such a ridiculous ideology no matter who it is that believes it. I won't mention any specific hate groups but every country and every ethnicity seems to have one of their very own supremacist groups always claiming superiority.
And it's always ridiculous.

[AdahnGorion]

Originally posted by ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ:

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

Incorrect, they are not the same culture (I don´t believe in race theory, so wont debate that topic)

You don't need to believe that race theory is wrong, you can know.

All humans share the same Genotype which means we are all one race.

What makes people different though is the unique expressions of the Genotype which is what we call Phenotypes.

A Turk is of one phenotype and an Arab has a different phenotype. But genotypically they are identical just as every other human is identical genotypically. But because genes are expressed differently, they appear as different "races" when they in fact are the same.

This is how you get white people, black people and various other unique traits of the various and diverse human ethnicities. It's just genes being activated and deactivated in a particular order that leads to a different phenotype.

EDIT: This is why "racial supremacy" is such a ridiculous ideology no matter who it is that believes it. I won't mention any specific hate groups but every country and every ethnicity seems to have one of their very own supremacist groups always claiming superiority.
And it's always ridiculous.

That is my entire point.
The reason why the Ottoman is in the Leventine culture group is for gameplay reasons and balance.. There could be ways to change this, but I am not sure it is that easy.

[ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ]

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

Originally posted by ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ:

You don't need to believe that race theory is wrong, you can know.

All humans share the same Genotype which means we are all one race.

What makes people different though is the unique expressions of the Genotype which is what we call Phenotypes.

A Turk is of one phenotype and an Arab has a different phenotype. But genotypically they are identical just as every other human is identical genotypically. But because genes are expressed differently, they appear as different "races" when they in fact are the same.

This is how you get white people, black people and various other unique traits of the various and diverse human ethnicities. It's just genes being activated and deactivated in a particular order that leads to a different phenotype.

EDIT: This is why "racial supremacy" is such a ridiculous ideology no matter who it is that believes it. I won't mention any specific hate groups but every country and every ethnicity seems to have one of their very own supremacist groups always claiming superiority.
And it's always ridiculous.

That is my entire point.
The reason why the Ottoman is in the Leventine culture group is for gameplay reasons and balance.. There could be ways to change this, but I am not sure it is that easy.

Why don't they just write an exception for the Ottoman AI so that the AI thinks it's equally profitable and productive to conquer other culture groups just as it's own.

That would fix the problem easily, I can't imagine it's a lot of code either, probably just a few lines of code.

[AdahnGorion]

Originally posted by ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ:

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

That is my entire point.
The reason why the Ottoman is in the Leventine culture group is for gameplay reasons and balance.. There could be ways to change this, but I am not sure it is that easy.

Why don't they just write an exception for the Ottoman AI so that the AI thinks it's equally profitable and productive to conquer other culture groups just as it's own.

That would fix the problem easily, I can't imagine it's a lot of code either, probably just a few lines of code.

Because then it goes full supernova and tries to attack everything.
It is not really that much of an issue to begin with ofc.

[aloup.saipuol]

Originally posted by ᛁᛖᛊᚢᛊ ᚨᚱ ᚷᚢᛞ:

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

That is my entire point.
The reason why the Ottoman is in the Leventine culture group is for gameplay reasons and balance.. There could be ways to change this, but I am not sure it is that easy.

Why don't they just write an exception for the Ottoman AI so that the AI thinks it's equally profitable and productive to conquer other culture groups just as it's own.

That would fix the problem easily, I can't imagine it's a lot of code either, probably just a few lines of code.

Originally posted by AdahnGorion:

Because then it goes full supernova and tries to attack everything.
It is not really that much of an issue to begin with ofc.

Pretty much this honestly. But even worse, it would always go into the regions with the least resistance, ie not the Mamluks. Remember the patches when Ottomans would always conquer half of Russia rather than the Middle East?


This said, in EU5, cultures can belong to several culture groups at once. So I think Turkish will belong to both a Turkic group and some kind of Levantine group. (We don't know the makeup of culture groups, so I'm not even sure the Levantine culture group is still as is.)

For the visual assets, I don't think the devs had the time to do separate Turkic models. One of them said (can't find it again) that they would release with only a couple generic identities that would cover-ish everyone, because of the sheer width of the game. Something like European, Middle Eastern, East Asian, American, Indian (?), Oceanian (?). Would be more fleshed out over time and patches.