Permanent weapon purchases via Artifacts

[Kirb Your Enthusiasm]

While I realise starting fresh is one of the rogue-lite traits that defines the genre, I'm putting out the suggestion that maybe the artifact mechanic could be expanded to accomodate this - once all suits and colours are purchased, the artifacts could be reset and the option to permanently purchase equipment for an exorbitant amount of artifacts for each item could be made available.
This would obviously eventually render the regular game flow obselete with enough purchases, so implementing this in conjunction with a "hardcore mode" (as suggested in another thread), or some similarly jacked-up difficulty mode would likely be a good idea.

I'm mainly suggesting this as a way to incentivise players further - the base game is pretty solid, but beyond the suits and a couple of aesthetic options (and, of course, the satisfaction of a challenge overcome), there doesn't seem to be much to look forward to.

[Yoka the Changeling]

As a guy who made "Hardcore Mode" tread I have to say that it goes somewhat against my suggestions (randomizing the loadouts specifically). I know that having some sort of progression in rogue-like is nice (like in Rogue Legacy) or some permanency but permanent purchases in my opinion will probably do this:

I will by weapons that I like and gonna stick to them and probably not going to take any other weapons. Things going to become stale and kinda boring, and I'll go: "Man, I should really try something else," - so I will, but once things go wrong I'll go: "Man, this run goes poorly. Time to bring out my Vulcan Laser," - and I'll go back to my "working" loadout.

Some weapons in this game are clearly better than others and so unless they just 100% nail the money situation so you actually would have to consider the price, doesn't matter how well you do - some weapons are not going to get much play if permanent unlocks are a thing.

*mumbly whispers to himself*
I think randomizing loadouts will make player to adapt to what he have and try different combinations making each run more varied but that's not the topic of this discussion so...

[Kirb Your Enthusiasm]

You're right that some weapons definitely have more utility than others - if I got Drunken Rockets in a randomised loadout I'd very likely hit the restart button. An intensive round of weapon rebalancing could possibly alleviate this to some extent, but there's no getting around the fact that some weapons are obviously intended to be straight upgrades, albeit more expensive (shotgun and assault shotgun, for instance).

Maybe paying varying amounts of artifacts (scaling with the regular monetary cost of the weapon itself) for an unlock could make a challenge run for a chosen piece of equipment available to the player, which awards permanent availability upon completion? The difficulty of the challenges could be scaled according to the perceived effectiveness of the item involved, with the challenge itself naturally focusing on the use of that item. You'd REALLY have to work for those nukes. The effort involved could help offset how ridiculously well-equipped players could potentially become.

[MechaTails]

I dont know about permanent unlocks. However, i think trading 1 artifact in to instantly unlock a weapon for a Campaign or Rogue run would be fine.

Artifacts found in Hulk levels 2 and below can be used to unlock basic stuff like MMG, Shotgun, Pulse Rifle, Grenades. Powerful items like 10point Repair Kits, Storm Hammer, HMG, Nukes, etc. could only be unlocked by trading in an artifact found at higher levels.

This would encourage players to keep collecting artifacts, as the artifact challenges could stay in the game instead of disappearing once you collected each one.

[Kirb Your Enthusiasm]

Originally posted by MechaTails:

I dont know about permanent unlocks. However, i think trading 1 artifact in to instantly unlock a weapon for a Campaign or Rogue run would be fine.

Artifacts found in Hulk levels 2 and below can be used to unlock basic stuff like MMG, Shotgun, Pulse Rifle, Grenades. Powerful items like 10point Repair Kits, Storm Hammer, HMG, Nukes, etc. could only be unlocked by trading in an artifact found at higher levels.

This would encourage players to keep collecting artifacts, as the artifact challenges could stay in the game instead of disappearing once you collected each one.

Nabbing artifacts can be enough of a pain that I'm not sure a one-run unlock would really be worth the effort. I'm trying to think of something more substantial, progression-wise.

[Photon Lotus]

I don't see a problem with what they've decided to go with in many respects. The idea that some weapons are 'obviously better', while somewhat subjective, has a definite, objective truth, but this is the reason there is the Tech System which forces players to explore the ship if they are hunting for that 'regular setup' or a general upgrade. You'd basically be taking that away altogether.

That they are better is also why those weapons are more expensive and have trade-offs with their counterparts via unique mechanics (eg Smart vs Burst vs Automatic; Hush Puppy vs MMG vs HMG; mobility, accuracy, precision, crowd control, fire-rate, etc). I would also be surprised if, in the full release, with more variety in enemies, weapons, and possibly systems, people wouldn't have multiple preferred setups for different strategies dependent on the ship's rundown screen. I have traded a HMG for some nukes in order to take out multiple repair systems that are alarmed and shielded for example. I have also traded weapons based on money, number of drone factories, the presence of Juggernauts, and those pesky guys with shields. Plus, changing it up for another campaign is really fun.


The weapons are reset after the campaign is finished and the suits are how you choose those permanent starter weapons - these are unlocked via the artifacts, so in a limited way you are getting what you want. If you make one weapon you want a permanent choice or all of them a randomized thing, then what's the point of having those different suits apart from the abilities? If I end up getting a melee weapon and an energy blaster with Janette (the one that only has 2 weapon slots) for the Cryptark I'm pretty much dead already. If I unlock my ultimate setup then what's the point in finding anything? Or even starting another run for that matter?

If randomized weapons (and even suits for that matter) were an optional feature, I would accept that and even welcome it on occassion.


My gripe is that the weapons are reset after each stage. I think we should have everything as it was at the completion of the stage instead of getting a refund. I would like to manually replenish weapon ammo, refill on health kits, grenades, repair hull, etc. That would make it more costly to upgrade/change weapons as you progress and players would be more likely to experiment with new weapons they've invested in during that particular run. I would, at least.

Instead of making the artifacts obsolete, why not flesh out the Tech 'Open' System into a fuller Tech Research System that requires various resources collected from enemies and other sources in the ship as well as money? This would introduce a second fold randomness to weapon acquisition while adding to the satisfaction of acquiring an awesome weapon, which might be a nice compromise.

That's my just my preference though.


Anyways, from what I've read of the roadmap, they're intending to add more story, so my guess is that the motivation for finding artifacts will be the lore as well as new suits (there are already more artifacts than suits right now). Maybe being able to unlock weapons to add to the mix could add some more of that Rogue Legacy style progression between runs. I don't know what's best, but considering the description of the game by the development team I don't think such a dramatic change is going to be made to what is the foundation of the game.

[Kirb Your Enthusiasm]

Originally posted by Silly String:

I don't see a problem with what they've decided to go with in many respects. The idea that some weapons are 'obviously better', while somewhat subjective, has a definite, objective truth, but this is the reason there is the Tech System which forces players to explore the ship if they are hunting for that 'regular setup' or a general upgrade. You'd basically be taking that away altogether.

The weapon unlock option could be heavily-delayed to offset that - with conditionals being that a) at least one full run of the campaign has been successfully completed, and b) the full set of 15 artifacts have already been collected once and all suit options purchased, inducing the first artifact reset and opening up the choice to grab them again and take a shot at a weapon challenge. Players would already be well-versed in the regular game by then, and this could give them something new to go for.

Originally posted by Silly String:

That they are better is also why those weapons are more expensive and have trade-offs with their counterparts via unique mechanics (eg Smart vs Burst vs Automatic; Hush Puppy vs MMG vs HMG; mobility, accuracy, precision, crowd control, fire-rate, etc). I would also be surprised if, in the full release, with more variety in enemies, weapons, and possibly systems, people wouldn't have multiple preferred setups for different strategies dependent on the ship's rundown screen. I have traded a HMG for some nukes in order to take out multiple repair systems that are alarmed and shielded for example. I have also traded weapons based on money, number of drone factories, the presence of Juggernauts, and those pesky guys with shields. Plus, changing it up for another campaign is really fun.

I'm not sure how this is a counter-argument. I never said a weapon unlock would remove the monetary cost of bringing it on a mission. You're pretty much describing inherent gameflow aside from that, people having preferred loadouts is still something that would happen.

Originally posted by Silly String:

The weapons are reset after the campaign is finished and the suits are how you choose those permanent starter weapons - these are unlocked via the artifacts, so in a limited way you are getting what you want. If you make one weapon you want a permanent choice or all of them a randomized thing, then what's the point of having those different suits apart from the abilities? If I end up getting a melee weapon and an energy blaster with Janette (the one that only has 2 weapon slots) for the Cryptark I'm pretty much dead already. If I unlock my ultimate setup then what's the point in finding anything? Or even starting another run for that matter?

If randomized weapons (and even suits for that matter) were an optional feature, I would accept that and even welcome it on occassion.

The starter weapons are an EXTREMELY limited way of looking at the unlock idea, and the abilities should be enough to differentiate the suits, anyway. I sure as hell play very differently between the Gunhead and Rook, and that's not just down to the starting loadouts.

Originally posted by Silly String:

My gripe is that the weapons are reset after each stage. I think we should have everything as it was at the completion of the stage instead of getting a refund. I would like to manually replenish weapon ammo, refill on health kits, grenades, repair hull, etc. That would make it more costly to upgrade/change weapons as you progress and players would be more likely to experiment with new weapons they've invested in during that particular run. I would, at least.

I get the feeling this isn't a thing at least partially due to energy weapons, which don't incur an ammunition cost, while still offering some very viable combat options. Forcing resupply costs for everything else might tip the scales too far in their favour.

Originally posted by Silly String:

Instead of making the artifacts obsolete, why not flesh out the Tech 'Open' System into a fuller Tech Research System that requires various resources collected from enemies and other sources in the ship as well as money? This would introduce a second fold randomness to weapon acquisition while adding to the satisfaction of acquiring an awesome weapon, which might be a nice compromise.

That's my just my preference though.

I'm doing the exact opposite of proposing making Artifacts obsolete, I'm proposing a further use for them on top of suit unlocks. And I am VEHEMENTLY against introducing an additional RNG element to weapon acquisition, especially if you're proposing applying this to the current system where items get removed between campaigns. If you're putting forward the idea of essentially grinding for resources in return for a permanent acquisition, that honestly sounds like it would be far, far too easy, not to mention somewhat reminiscent of Warframe's grind-within-a-grind lunacy. Bad idea either way.

Originally posted by Silly String:

Anyways, from what I've read of the roadmap, they're intending to add more story, so my guess is that the motivation for finding artifacts will be the lore as well as new suits (there are already more artifacts than suits right now). Maybe being able to unlock weapons to add to the mix could add some more of that Rogue Legacy style progression between runs. I don't know what's best, but considering the description of the game by the development team I don't think such a dramatic change is going to be made to what is the foundation of the game.

Some Rogue Legacy-style permanency is something that appeals to me. And like in Rogue Legacy, it should certainly be something you have to put in the effort for. I wouldn't throw any changes out the window, particularly where late-game stuff is concerned - the suggestion section is here for a reason :p

[PandACT]

@MechaTails That one sounds ideal, possibly have increased likelyhood of finding a given weapon instead? One artifact for a weapon seems a little wasteful. Maybe you could have a given number of slots for the weapon finders. If you fill all of them up with one weapon, then you would be very likely to get that. If you fill them up with misc. weapons that would just help your loadout, then you have slightly better odds of getting those earlier.

Also, if you want permanent weapon unlocks, you could always have variations on the different suit skins... remote nukes and nuke missiles are similar, perhaps you could interchange similar weapons on the different skins. You could have a similar play style, but it would certainly change things.

[Photon Lotus]

@Kirbachev

So, sorry for some confusion in the second snip you used. I was addressing the suggestion Yoka made that loadouts be completely randomized, not the permanancy you're suggesting. I understand being vehemently opposed to an additional element of randomness to the weapon system. Again, that snip was more addressing the suggestion of complete randomness which I was arguing would remove a kind of strategy. And also I was addressing the complaint that players wont try anything new and will just go for the 'best' weapon. Sorry for not differentiating. I was tired.

But, I have to say, I am also vehemently opposed to permanently unlocked weapons.

Originally posted by Kirbachev:

The weapon unlock option could be heavily-delayed to offset that - with conditionals being that a) at least one full run of the campaign has been successfully completed, and b) the full set of 15 artifacts have already been collected once and all suit options purchased, inducing the first artifact reset and opening up the choice to grab them again and take a shot at a weapon challenge. Players would already be well-versed in the regular game by then, and this could give them something new to go for.

The end result being that, no matter how long the delay, or how involved the prerequisites, we then never have to hunt for that weapon ever again. I then would never feel uncomfortable without my mainstay weapon. It would be too easy for me, personally.

Artifacts are lore items which makes no sense to reset. I think what you want is something parallel to that, just a way of unlocking weapons. Just have something completely different so we don't end up with a screen full of Artifact challenges to accommodate more unlocks.

And this would introduce grinding. We are now looking for these challenges to pop up, repeatedly, so we can unlock more content. Players will go through runs to get through the Artifact challenges as quickly as possible to get to the reset, and then again to finally get the weapon they want.

Originally posted by Kirbachev:

I get the feeling this isn't a thing at least partially due to energy weapons, which don't incur an ammunition cost, while still offering some very viable combat options. Forcing resupply costs for everything else might tip the scales too far in their favour.

You're probably right. I didn't even think about that. I also suspect it makes balancing the economy system simpler as well as adding some need to think about how much ammo you might waste by over-buying. I still think they could add a maintenance fee for energy weapons and the suite, but it's probably best not to overcomplicate things.

Originally posted by Kirbachev:

The starter weapons are an EXTREMELY limited way of looking at the unlock idea, and the abilities should be enough to differentiate the suits, anyway. I sure as hell play very differently between the Gunhead and Rook, and that's not just down to the starting loadouts.

I'm doing the exact opposite of proposing making Artifacts obsolete, I'm proposing a further use for them on top of suit unlocks.

But what you're proposing makes using them to unlock suits obsolete. The suits aren't just the abilities, they are a starting set of items, abilities, and weapons that are designed around a balanced run.

Jennet for example has 20% extra damage applied to weapons. To offset this it only comes with one starting weapon, a burst gun meaning no spraying from start, and only 2 weapon slots. To balance out the difficulty only having 2 weapons will bring in the final level, it has 6 item slots and even comes with a nuke and a turret. If I could unlock weapons permanently, then I could just choose Jennet for maximum damage and 6 slots for FIX items - breeze through those first levels and be ahead by a long shot with the lower need for ammo by the time I face the Cryptark.

Salamander is immune to slime and fire damage. It comes with a flamethrower, which can be sprayed at a shield system without worrying about reflected damage. It can be used to blow up slime spewing turrets to kill enemies without caring about taking damage. But, it only comes with a flamethrower and a saw, which brings limited range and ammo troubles, and only a FIX-2 which means getting close up needs to be a careful procedure.

Intruder has a teleport item, a cloak, a silenced weapon. I've taken it through levels without ever being detected! And I've been able to quickly take out two repair systems on opposite ends of a ship with the teleporter, not to mention setting up quick escapes to a repair pod or ammo pod. But it only comes with a maximum of 5 hull making it brittle, it only comes with a FIX-2, anything more is practically useless unless you get to zero. Only having an EMP weapon and a slow firing sniper also means that all that stealth is actually something you really need to use from the start.

It's not just about how you play, and what weapons are the most fun. It's also about making the campaign a balance start for any playstyle.

Originally posted by Kirbachev:

Some Rogue Legacy-style permanency is something that appeals to me. And like in Rogue Legacy, it should certainly be something you have to put in the effort for. I wouldn't throw any changes out the window, particularly where late-game stuff is concerned - the suggestion section is here for a reason :p

I'm not sure if you thought that I was saying that I didn't like the idea of Rogue Legacy style progression or not... In any case, I was agreeing with you on this point. But the change you are suggesting would require too much tweaking given what's already been made; the game is a Bullet-Hell Rogue-Like and eventually unlocking a bunch of weapons is going to remove a huge Rogue element. I bought the game in large part because it promised no two runs would be the same. I expect more variation not less.

And if I'm not mistaken, Rogue Legacy had stat upgrades, which allowed for further progress into the Castle, right? I have the game but didn't play it a lot. Cryptark doesn't have any RPG elements and is made to be won with equal probability from the first run, so is it really comparable? And yes, I know how probability works, but what I'm saying is at that very first run, your chances of winning are even with your skill and your luck, whereas with Rogue Legacy, if you started with what you gained by, let's say your 5th run, your chances would be improved regardless of skill and luck. I think this might be what you want, but I really don't think it applies here to weapons.




As an aside:
With the suggestion of collecting resources from enemies and other sources in the ship I was not suggesting a grind. The comparison to Warframe is just insulting! I'm suggesting something that I was imagining for a longer campaign, more FTL sized in length. And it would mean a different motivation for choosing a ship other than the amount of cash. Resources would be for unique, tough enemies like something only a Juggernaut would drop and it wouldn't be a thousand of them and then a 24 hr wait time... NOT WARFRAME. Research time would be inbetween levels.

It wouldn't work for the simple reason that you wouldn't be able to use anything you got just before the Cryptark! I was just trying to think of a way to add some sense of accomplishment to the game without breaking a rogue element. (And just to clarify, this is something I would gamble they will never add so you don't have to worry about it :)

But seriously, seriously, please don't make the comparison to Warframe. That's a personal pain you're digging at there...