Can we have a talk about sniping? More specifically Gauss.

[Carthomin]

I'm not sure how prevalent sniping is in the lower tiers but at tier 1 Quick Play it just dominates. The ability for Gauss rifles, more specifically HAGs to output crazy damage at long range is crazy and it makes it so hard to play a lot of the time. PPCs and Lasers aren't to bad when it comes to sniping, but Gauss rifles often act as deciders in games, where if one team has a player using dual HAG 40s or even 30s and that player isn't a literal potato they often win. Gauss rifles feel very oppressive, and they feel low skill, they feel like there's almost no real solid counters either. I think they need a change cause it makes me hate playing when I have to deal with them consistently. Out of all the weapon systems HAGs from my experience have the most players dedicating themselves to playing with those solely.

Tonight for example I had several opponents only playing HAG builds for several hours straight, and each time they were dominating in matches. I couldn't catch a win when playing against them, and I was trying to play some fun light mechs like the legacy cougar and clan commando, the only option for me to win was to just stop playing anything but my best builds cause not even decent mechs can stop that overpowered weapon system. HAGs are just generally better and they're oppressive towards a lot of game play.

The easy answer is to say that I need to stop ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and get good, which is a response I have gotten. It's not like I can't just use my most effective builds or buy a Gauss sniper build myself. But, in a game with so many mechs and playstyles, why should I be forced to sweat to have a chance at winning in quick play cause some asshat is using a Gauss rifle. Why should I have to sit in the basement of manifold cause going outside means 3 different Gauss rifle mechs will obliterate me when I can't touch them. This ♥♥♥♥ is unfair, unfun, and oppressive towards certain gameplay.

[Carthomin]

If I had my way I'd probably rework Gauss rifles. I'd make their reload fairly fast, but I'd make the charge time really slow to make it so they can't be used as camping in the open, reactive type tools. There are a couple minor things to do as well like add a minimum charge needed to fire or something, but I think that might help fix a lot of the Guass and specifically the HAGs issues.

[Donovan]

Publicado originalmente por Carthomin:

I'm not sure how prevalent sniping is in the lower tiers but at tier 1 Quick Play it just dominates. The ability for Gauss rifles, more specifically HAGs to output crazy damage at long range is crazy and it makes it so hard to play a lot of the time. PPCs and Lasers aren't to bad when it comes to sniping, but Gauss rifles often act as deciders in games, where if one team has a player using dual HAG 40s or even 30s and that player isn't a literal potato they often win. Gauss rifles feel very oppressive, and they feel low skill, they feel like there's almost no real solid counters either. I think they need a change cause it makes me hate playing when I have to deal with them consistently. Out of all the weapon systems HAGs from my experience have the most players dedicating themselves to playing with those solely.

Tonight for example I had several opponents only playing HAG builds for several hours straight, and each time they were dominating in matches. I couldn't catch a win when playing against them, and I was trying to play some fun light mechs like the legacy cougar and clan commando, the only option for me to win was to just stop playing anything but my best builds cause not even decent mechs can stop that overpowered weapon system. HAGs are just generally better and they're oppressive towards a lot of game play.

The easy answer is to say that I need to stop ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and get good, which is a response I have gotten. It's not like I can't just use my most effective builds or buy a Gauss sniper build myself. But, in a game with so many mechs and playstyles, why should I be forced to sweat to have a chance at winning in quick play cause some asshat is using a Gauss rifle. Why should I have to sit in the basement of manifold cause going outside means 3 different Gauss rifle mechs will obliterate me when I can't touch them. This ♥♥♥♥ is unfair, unfun, and oppressive towards certain gameplay.

I don't think the issue is entirely related to the weapons and how they perform. It also comes down to the way a lot of maps are designed.

Take your example, HPG. Back in the day there weren't ramps leading right from the spawn up onto the walls, used to be you had to have a mech with half-decent jumping capability and/or use some of the level geometry to get onto the walls if you didn't want to walk up the ramps on the insides of the walls.

But these days? Quite a few maps give overly easy access to high ground for assault mechs that generally lets them farm damage with only marginal risk to themselves (Outside being plinked at by enemy sniping mechs).

At that point it becomes a game of using enough hard cover/terrain/etc to close that distance or get into a more favorable position, but it's not entirely the fault of the weapons.

But as a note on those above thoughts, it's also a situation of knowing where the "safe spaces" are of each map that you can go to, or get into, that provide protection from long-range enemy fire and preparing for when (And not if) the brawl starts.

That all said, HAGs aren't absolute pinpoint damage weapons. They're similar to LBX, their high damage number seems intimidating when you consider a HAG40 can deal 40 damage. But that doesn't mean it's going to be 40 damage pinpoint. Unless the target is standing absolutely still that damage will be spread across two or more components, and they do have a long-ish firing time with how many rounds they pump out per salvo.

Publicado originalmente por Carthomin:

If I had my way I'd probably rework Gauss rifles. I'd make their reload fairly fast, but I'd make the charge time really slow to make it so they can't be used as camping in the open, reactive type tools. There are a couple minor things to do as well like add a minimum charge needed to fire or something, but I think that might help fix a lot of the Guass and specifically the HAGs issues.

Gauss used to fire immediately with no need to charge and it was changed to combat how easy it was. No matter how long it takes the gauss to charge, people will just stay in cover until it's mostly charged, pop out, find a target, fire, and duck back into cover.

It won't really fix anything.

[spartanspud]

I think the majority of issues with this game are mostly due to the maps best being described functional. You can play a match on most of the maps in this game. But there's pretty significant flaws with the majority of them.

I think partly it's exacerbated by the fact you have to choose your mech before knowing what mode or map you will play on. But I think there's not much that can be done about that. I have 300 mechs and I imagine there's some technical limitation around preloading them all into the game.

[sumdumbum]

Yeah, it would be nice if they had a point system that rated your mech and put you into a match with other mechs of similar rating. It would prolly work better than the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ tier system.

[Miriage]

HAGs farm stupid players that stand in the open. Most of the maps have plenty of cover that nobody wants to use, HPG for example has so much cover that the only way to get "wall sniped" is when the enemy has control of your side of the wall.
Play smart and hags can do very little to you, this is why they are rarely used in comp.

[spartanspud]

Publicado originalmente por sumdumbum:

Yeah, it would be nice if they had a point system that rated your mech and put you into a match with other mechs of similar rating. It would prolly work better than the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ tier system.

No.

[Fastspectre]

it would be nice if the tier system would WORK, and not just be a glorified xp bar
also if it would stick to the mech (the specific mech and build) and not the account

then gauss rifles used to be pull trigger shot fires no charge up, then they added the charge up to nerf good shots (the player, not the weapon PGI actively wanted to nerf players, and failed because we learned to use the charge up gauss rifles)
then they nerfed jump jets, also to nerf a grp of players, us jumpsnipers (the guy that can aim)
then they added "brawling" weapons like MRM's (500 meter range weapons) so the noobs that were constantly complaining because they were impatient and got themselves killed (because they couldn't sneak into range without getting themselves killed)
and they reworked maps to have cover EVERYWHERE, so bad players can now hide from lrm's and snipers, that finally worked and made the game unfun

then they added HAG's some completly OP ♥♥♥♥ and a mech that can run 14 AP Gauss
at this point they just want to make the game unfun so people buy mechwarrior 5.... LOL

[Toaster]

Publicado originalmente por Fastspectre:

it would be nice if the tier system would WORK, and not just be a glorified xp bar
also if it would stick to the mech (the specific mech and build) and not the account

Tier system used to be XP bar but aint anymore. Issue with a wide variety of skill levels in T1 is the low playerbase. No amount of redoing the system will fix it if theres not enough players to populate it.

Gauss is fine. Normal gauss is 30 pin point max because you can only shoot 2. HAGs spread like hell, and the splash reduces their pinpoint damage even if you hit. There are few mechs that can do 50 pinpoint with 2 GR+2ERPPC like the MAD2-4L or Sovereign. Cant recall seeing the MAD2 much and Sovereign never uses that build.

Snipers lose to about anything that gets close enough to shoot them. Combine this with most sniper builds being in slow mechs and QP being very nascar centric, it's not really a fun playstyle anymore.

[V4.Skunk]

You need to be very accurate to dominate at range with a HAG30/40. You need face time too.

[salamatmahal]

I like HAGs. Hunchbacks make them look good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWm1Lp5PYjE

Edited to add... I think I peed a little when a light first looked at me.

[salamatmahal]

Oh, and the real thing to do on HPG is take the walls. If you are a sniper, the why is obvious. But if you are not a sniper, you are going up there to knock the snipers down and then you can eat them at your leisure.

Basement loses the vast majority of the time because your team is removing mechs from the field until the friendlies outside are dead and then the baddies can come for the basement team with a massive advantage.

[RetroACE135]

Publicado originalmente por spartanspud:

Publicado originalmente por sumdumbum:

Yeah, it would be nice if they had a point system that rated your mech and put you into a match with other mechs of similar rating. It would prolly work better than the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ tier system.

No.

Oh, you mean like Battle Value, like how the Tabletop BattleTech game uses? I don't see why not...

[Fastspectre]

Publicado originalmente por Toaster:

Publicado originalmente por Fastspectre:

it would be nice if the tier system would WORK, and not just be a glorified xp bar
also if it would stick to the mech (the specific mech and build) and not the account

Tier system used to be XP bar but aint anymore. Issue with a wide variety of skill levels in T1 is the low playerbase. No amount of redoing the system will fix it if theres not enough players to populate it.

Gauss is fine. Normal gauss is 30 pin point max because you can only shoot 2. HAGs spread like hell, and the splash reduces their pinpoint damage even if you hit. There are few mechs that can do 50 pinpoint with 2 GR+2ERPPC like the MAD2-4L or Sovereign. Cant recall seeing the MAD2 much and Sovereign never uses that build.

Snipers lose to about anything that gets close enough to shoot them. Combine this with most sniper builds being in slow mechs and QP being very nascar centric, it's not really a fun playstyle anymore.

the tier system is STILL ONLY A GLORIFIED XP BAR, people that play shoters semi regular (even like me who sucks in all Halo PVP against controler user) will reach tier 1
i was there before i got reset because didn't play MWO for a while and i allready know my average matchscore is enough to get back to tier 1, even if it is not as high as it used to (dropped about 100 points on average compared to back when i played this more)

2 days ago i was in one of my scats and i found a completly out of position dire whale, he went left (on top of that also alone, after 12 years people still go left.....zzzzz) (i guess he had dual heavy gauss, couldn't see it because ecm at 500+ meter range) while jumping over a building, he had enough time to hit me with 70+ dmg to the ct... all armor gone deep orange ct internals... practically one shot, so i had to pretty much hide behind teamates for the rest of the match.....
the whale died ofc when my team arrived shortly after, wasted tonnage of a mech

and the 50 pinpoint dmg you mentioned is a blow yourself up build, if you fire 2 gauss and 2 erppc's together you get really close to blowing yourself up, if you are unlucky it happens

[Miriage]

Publicado originalmente por Fastspectre:

Publicado originalmente por Toaster:

Tier system used to be XP bar but aint anymore. Issue with a wide variety of skill levels in T1 is the low playerbase. No amount of redoing the system will fix it if theres not enough players to populate it.

Gauss is fine. Normal gauss is 30 pin point max because you can only shoot 2. HAGs spread like hell, and the splash reduces their pinpoint damage even if you hit. There are few mechs that can do 50 pinpoint with 2 GR+2ERPPC like the MAD2-4L or Sovereign. Cant recall seeing the MAD2 much and Sovereign never uses that build.

Snipers lose to about anything that gets close enough to shoot them. Combine this with most sniper builds being in slow mechs and QP being very nascar centric, it's not really a fun playstyle anymore.

the tier system is STILL ONLY A GLORIFIED XP BAR, people that play shoters semi regular (even like me who sucks in all Halo PVP against controler user) will reach tier 1
i was there before i got reset because didn't play MWO for a while and i allready know my average matchscore is enough to get back to tier 1, even if it is not as high as it used to (dropped about 100 points on average compared to back when i played this more)

2 days ago i was in one of my scats and i found a completly out of position dire whale, he went left (on top of that also alone, after 12 years people still go left.....zzzzz) (i guess he had dual heavy gauss, couldn't see it because ecm at 500+ meter range) while jumping over a building, he had enough time to hit me with 70+ dmg to the ct... all armor gone deep orange ct internals... practically one shot, so i had to pretty much hide behind teamates for the rest of the match.....
the whale died ofc when my team arrived shortly after, wasted tonnage of a mech

and the 50 pinpoint dmg you mentioned is a blow yourself up build, if you fire 2 gauss and 2 erppc's together you get really close to blowing yourself up, if you are unlucky it happens

The tier bar is not an xp bar... most of the playerbase is stuck in low tier while playing the most.

2 gauss 2erppc on the MAD-4L or Sovereign is not hot at all. Please do not comment about things when you have 0 knowledge of the game mechanics

[spartanspud]

Publicado originalmente por RetroACE135:

Publicado originalmente por spartanspud:

No.

Oh, you mean like Battle Value, like how the Tabletop BattleTech game uses? I don't see why not...

I believe he means the way the Solaris 7 mode tiers worked before. You can see on mech icons in the store and lab that they all have D1-D7.

And the reason why not for lance value, is because that would require a fundamental rework of the whole system for no reason. And 2, it would force you to sync with 11 other people.