Why Denmark?

[HEAVY FIRST RATE]

First, let me say I have only started a few games as I am new to Napoleon, however, I played as Great Britain in several historical campaigns and the win requirement that I must own Denmark as one of the core areas has me quite puzzled since you start out allied with and trading with Denmark and every game I have start so far, France never goes to war nor ever tries to take Denmark as they are one of the few countries they can trade with! Is trading with France the reason you are required to take Denmark or am I missing some historical fact that is in play?

[Alwyn]

Good question! I'm in a similar situation in my British campaign, I meet the victory conditions except for Denmark. I'm friendly with Denmark, it seems artificial to invade a friendly nation to meet the conditions.

I guess that the historical fact which the inclusion of Copenhagen in Britain's victory conditions was the British attack in 1807: http://remembering-history.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-second-battle-of-copenhagen-1807.html.

[BicycleMan]

It is supposed to display how they had burned down the denmark fleet to deny it to the frenchies

[HEAVY FIRST RATE]

Okay, so it is a requirement in the historical campaign because it is a historical event! So next time maybe I should play the domination campaign instead because killing off a trading partner by a nation whose biggest source of revenue is trade definitely seems a bit counterproductive to me even if they are trading with the enemy.

Thank you guys for pointing me to the historical markers! The historical references are always interesting to find out about!

[HEAVY FIRST RATE]

So I guess my next question would be: Has anyone ever played a historical British campaign where the French actually try to take Denmark to utilize it's naval position and capacity?

[Sirlion]

Denmark was neutral, or at least tried to be as neutral as possible during the conflict, and it was the only power with a working navy beside Britain. Later became allied with France due to diplomatic pressure and amass of French troops on the border, therefore Britain had the brilliant idea to bombard the nation and confiscate the navy.

[[LYF]Levi o Lusitano]

Originally posted by No Romantic Experience Sirlion:

Denmark was neutral, or at least tried to be as neutral as possible during the conflict, and it was the only power with a working navy beside Britain. Later became allied with France due to diplomatic pressure and amass of French troops on the border, therefore Britain had the brilliant idea to bombard the nation and confiscate the navy.

What do you mean the only one with a working Navy?

Discussing numbers is always hard when it comes to historical values so these are focusing on the minimal-maximum reported ships of each nation.

Denmark had between 12-28 Ships of the line and some smaller vessels operating during the napoleonic wars.

just between 1800-1805 for example there were much bigger and far effective nations in the naval "field".

-UK was by far the most influential with around 77-130 Ships of the Line plus an endless array of smaller ships;

-France had between 40-60 ships of the Line plus corvettes and frigates etc;

-Spain had between 60-90 Ships of Line and some frigates and smaller ships;

-Portugal had around 23 Ships of the Line and around 64 of the best frigates, Line Carracks(Naus) and some smaller corvettes and Brigues. Having undergone substancial reformation Portuguese ships were of superior quality and better equiped than those of their European counterparts and the training of the crew dated back to the first crews of naval artillery (bombardeiros in portuguese) making tthem the best trained seamen in the world followed by the Dutch.

The Portuguese fleet had an optimal ratio between ships of line / frigates or corvettes : 1 / 3
(Better ratio = better ranking).
In other Navies: the normal ratio was 1 / 1, 5


-The Netherlands had between 20-50 Ships of the Line and some smaller frigates and other ships. They also had very well trained crews but were often handicapped by the smaller size of their ships in comparison to the vessels of other nations, particularly England. This was due to the shallow home waters of the Netherlands.

-Sweded had around 11-20 Ships of the Line and a few smaller vessels;

-Russia had between 22-50 Ships of the Line and some smaller vessels as well.



"After the Battle of Trafalgar on 21 October 1805 Great Britain came close to an undisputed global sea command. The countermove from Napoleon was the “Continental System” inaugurated through the Berlin Decree of 21 November 1806. According to this decree the British Isles were under blockade, and it was prohibited for the countries on the European Continent to trade with the British. The aim of the decree was to strangle Great Britain economically.
Denmark and Portugal constituted gaps in this system which were to be closed. Therefore, Napoleon had to take actions against the two countries, and if he succeeded – as a spin off – would reduce the dominance of the British sea power in favour of the French Navy.
Portugal was in the same situation as Denmark, neutral and with a considerable navy.
If the Danish – and the Portuguese – sailing navy became a part of the naval forces of Napoleon it was considered a problematic situation by the British because of the size of the navies"

[Sirlion]

Come now. You know perfectly what I was trying to say. Beside Denmark none of the other navies could stand a chance against Britain and with their blockade it was impossible for France to have any realistic chance at sea warfare for a decade. If we want to talk numbers fine, the fact wont change

[[LYF]Levi o Lusitano]

The fact is in this case numbers matter . Denmark´s navy was strong indeed but couldnt withstand a fleet full of English Ships of line from 64 to 122 guns plus their massive array os frigates and such as. The battle of copenhagen in 1807 saw a a british victory for all effects,with most danish ships being heavily damaged by the English ones,and consider the fact that only a small number of British ships were sent to raid the port they completly destroyed or scuppled the Danish/Norwegian Navy Vessels wich is also a fact.

No navy could withstand a battle against the Royal Navy alone but if napoleon suceeded in unifying with Denmark and Portugal ,together with the already allies of france,the Dutch,the chances of napoleon´s alliance to face the English in the sea would increase substancially.

[Ravnen23]

Originally posted by TWC Sirlion:

Denmark was neutral, or at least tried to be as neutral as possible during the conflict, and it was the only power with a working navy beside Britain. Later became allied with France due to diplomatic pressure and amass of French troops on the border, therefore Britain had the brilliant idea to bombard the nation and confiscate the navy.

Thats wrong mate.
Denmarks fleet was anchored up in the harbor and none of the ships was equipped to not try and provoke Britain. The danish army was lined up in Holstein to try and repel a french invasion.
After the british bombardment and theft of our fleet though, our prince regent allied us to Napoleon. The hatred for Britain with in the kingdom of Denmark was larger than any hatred toward any nation has ever been since.
Denmark was neutral and more likely to ally with Britain than France, but Britania might ruled the waves, but Napoleon ruled on land. And the danes feared a full scale french invasion. Thus the reason they choose not to ally with either side until the brits sailed off with our fleet in oktober 1807.

[Ravnen23]

Originally posted by LYFLevi o Lusitano:

Originally posted by No Romantic Experience Sirlion:

Denmark was neutral, or at least tried to be as neutral as possible during the conflict, and it was the only power with a working navy beside Britain. Later became allied with France due to diplomatic pressure and amass of French troops on the border, therefore Britain had the brilliant idea to bombard the nation and confiscate the navy.

What do you mean the only one with a working Navy?

Discussing numbers is always hard when it comes to historical values so these are focusing on the minimal-maximum reported ships of each nation.

Denmark had between 12-28 Ships of the line and some smaller vessels operating during the napoleonic wars.

just between 1800-1805 for example there were much bigger and far effective nations in the naval "field".

-UK was by far the most influential with around 77-130 Ships of the Line plus an endless array of smaller ships;

-France had between 40-60 ships of the Line plus corvettes and frigates etc;

-Spain had between 60-90 Ships of Line and some frigates and smaller ships;

-Portugal had around 23 Ships of the Line and around 64 of the best frigates, Line Carracks(Naus) and some smaller corvettes and Brigues. Having undergone substancial reformation Portuguese ships were of superior quality and better equiped than those of their European counterparts and the training of the crew dated back to the first crews of naval artillery (bombardeiros in portuguese) making tthem the best trained seamen in the world followed by the Dutch.

The Portuguese fleet had an optimal ratio between ships of line / frigates or corvettes : 1 / 3
(Better ratio = better ranking).
In other Navies: the normal ratio was 1 / 1, 5


-The Netherlands had between 20-50 Ships of the Line and some smaller frigates and other ships. They also had very well trained crews but were often handicapped by the smaller size of their ships in comparison to the vessels of other nations, particularly England. This was due to the shallow home waters of the Netherlands.

-Sweded had around 11-20 Ships of the Line and a few smaller vessels;

-Russia had between 22-50 Ships of the Line and some smaller vessels as well.



"After the Battle of Trafalgar on 21 October 1805 Great Britain came close to an undisputed global sea command. The countermove from Napoleon was the “Continental System” inaugurated through the Berlin Decree of 21 November 1806. According to this decree the British Isles were under blockade, and it was prohibited for the countries on the European Continent to trade with the British. The aim of the decree was to strangle Great Britain economically.
Denmark and Portugal constituted gaps in this system which were to be closed. Therefore, Napoleon had to take actions against the two countries, and if he succeeded – as a spin off – would reduce the dominance of the British sea power in favour of the French Navy.
Portugal was in the same situation as Denmark, neutral and with a considerable navy.
If the Danish – and the Portuguese – sailing navy became a part of the naval forces of Napoleon it was considered a problematic situation by the British because of the size of the navies"

Close but no cigar mate.

The UK had more like 250 something Big ships of the line, plus 30 something lesser ships of the line. The UK had by far the largest navy. Denmark had the 5th largest navy at the time, but it wasnt the size that worried the british, not even if France took position of all the larger fleets of Europe they would be able to muster a fleet to match the UK. But the quality of the danish vessels and the skills of the danish sailors was a factor not to be neglegted. After the theft of our fleet UK continued to harras any danish attempt to rebuild a fleet, in order to keep danish marines at shore.
When the brits sailed off with the danish fleet they took away 18 ships of line and about 15 fregattes, I wont bother mentioning ships of lesser size as those were the biggest of the fleet. One ship of the line and two fregattes escaped capture. The ship of the line was in Norway during the attack, but met its fate later on in a battle against a british fleet. One of the fregattes was patrolling around the danish colonies, but was impounded by the spaniards in one of their harbours when Spain ended their alliance with Napoleon.
The last ship was a gift from King George to his kin the crown prince of Denmark. The english soldiers left that ship in the harbour. How ever the prince was so infuriated after the theft, that he filled the ship with english prisoners and sent it return to britain.

[Ravnen23]

Originally posted by LYFLevi o Lusitano:

The fact is in this case numbers matter . Denmark´s navy was strong indeed but couldnt withstand a fleet full of English Ships of line from 64 to 122 guns plus their massive array os frigates and such as. The battle of copenhagen in 1807 saw a a british victory for all effects,with most danish ships being heavily damaged by the English ones,and consider the fact that only a small number of British ships were sent to raid the port they completly destroyed or scuppled the Danish/Norwegian Navy Vessels wich is also a fact.

No navy could withstand a battle against the Royal Navy alone but if napoleon suceeded in unifying with Denmark and Portugal ,together with the already allies of france,the Dutch,the chances of napoleon´s alliance to face the English in the sea would increase substancially.

Wrong mate.
Yes some might say that the british won, some might say the danes won. In the end Id say the day ended with out a victor. Yes some of the danish hulls that defended the harbour was badly damaged. But they were hulls equipped with guns and nothing more. The navy and the great ships of line lay safe and sound in the harbour untouched by the battle. When Nelson sued for ceasefire he did so because some of his larger ships had taken a lot of damage and was drifting dangerously close to the battery of Trekroner that equipped with 66 guns would mean devastating damage to the british ships. Nelson told the danish crownprince that he had taken danish captives and ships, which was lie, but none the less a brilliant tactical move. As the crown prince believed him and agreed to a truce, so that both countries could go back to being on friendly terms bonded by kinship. Had the battle continued the danish reserve would have been sent into battle and with the fortress of trekroner along with the citadel and defensive batteries at the harbour Nelson would never had gotten close enough to actually bombard the city which was one of his threats. Both sides endured loses above the thousands, but both sides walked away from the battle satisfied with the outcome, though a stupid amount of lives had been lost.