New kingdoms rarely emerge

[Winter Is Coming]

I've been finding that is really rare to see new kingdoms emerge. I have been playing these 700, 1000-years long games against the last-standing opponent (out of 6 initial opponents) and trying to keep the size of my kingdom and his at a minimum (as I have seen that new towns only emerge under a certain threshold of global citizens), but I have seen new kingdoms emerge only once. Do you feel the same?

[Daya.Mar.Sana]

I've always found that having a lack of (Neutral) towns from the AI's constantly eating them up usually reduces the new kingdoms chances to emerge.

[Winter Is Coming]

In my case, I didn't take the neutral towns and the AI didn't either. But still no new kingdoms.

[the3dfxdude]

7K and 7K2 have a global population limit to allowing new kingdoms to emerge. It's pretty low. The feature works great for scenarios, but for standard games, it's likely to rarely happen.

Also, one point, if you start a standard game, with a certain AI number, it cannot emerge more AI than you started with. So one Kingdom has to be defeated, and then there still needs to be a low enough global population for this to work. Then there is a chance, and the chance isn't too low.

[Winter Is Coming]

After experimenting a lot, I was actually able to have them emerging. After winning the game and staying in it, I downsized my kingdom back to 1 town. And then you see up to 4 new kingdoms emerge. The more you downsize, the more new kingdoms emerge. Sometimes they behave weirdly for some time, with their king frozen outside the town for a long time before resuming normal behaviour of building etc. This way, the game can continue indefinitely even after you win.

[insane.tobi]

I think there are a fair few requirements for a new kingdom to emerge. Firstly, there needs to be a free kingdom "slot" in the game, i.e. there need to be less than seven kingdoms on the map at that particular time, which makes sense. Secondly, a new kingdom needs a sufficiently sized unoccupied city to form from. I think it's at least 30 people. This generally limits the amount of new kingdoms forming, as there simply aren't any free positions for them in the early game, and usually no large cities for them to form out of in the later game, as the AI usually curbs large cities rather fast. If both conditions are met, you actually have a decent chance of new kingdoms forming at a decent pace. Of course, you will also have to make sure you have the "new kingdoms emerge" option enabled during game setup.

While I like the idea of new kingdoms forming in general, I think it is not very fleshed out, as those new kingdoms rarely have a chance to survive out there, as they do not necessarily have access to resources, start with no army into a world that may be still armed to the teeth, and to make things worse they do not have access to a Greater Being, as they do not have a scroll of power either. On top of that, there are usually only very few decent towns of their nation left by the time they form, and those will often already be contested by at least one other kingdom or just not really worth the effort, making it more difficult to expand without getting stomped, an issue that is made even worse with the tech disadvantage.

This means that the only way to get a new kingdom to actually grow into a feasible challenge or trading partner would be either them lucking out or you devoting substantial time and resources to keeping them safe until they've grown enough.

I guess the real question is... why would you want more kingdoms to form? I tend to find them more of a minor hassle than a feasible way to prolong the game in a meaningful way, as they can either be quickly bought out or curbstomped within seconds due to their lack of an army. Other than that, there is nothing you can really gain from it, mostly due to the aforementioned lack of scrolls, tech and anything worthwhile to take from them. If you're quick, you could also send in a spy and have him stab their king before any other military unit is trained, and you'll likely see your spy crowned next (and immediately surrendering said crown to you if he's loyal enough).

Maybe new kingdoms should start with a few advantages to even out their difficulties - give them an average tech level at least in the "civil" technologies (you'd think an upgrade to farming efficiency for example would permeate once the last kingdom has it, for example), so let them start out with any farming, mining and production tech all other kingdoms have discovered already, and maybe even a little more (no need to give them war machines tech, those are silly anyway). Give them a scroll of power, and maybe a selection of generals similar to the "random kingdoms" setting, so they actually have something to work with. If you're feeling generous, maybe let the formation of a kingdom be accompanied by the spawning of a new resource (perhaps with a mine on it) within range of their city.

[Tungsten Whitmarsh Cadow]

I had about 4 new kingdoms pop up. Like others said, older kingdoms got wiped out or surrendered and after a little while a new kingdom showed up. My problem is I can't finish this single match because my treasure keeps getting spent. I've got a lot of troops and machines and buildings. I try to cut down, but am busy fighting. Markets just don't work for me late game. You get a little trade going and something always happens.

I tried sending my troops out to conquer, but ran out of money and loyalty and now I have rebellion and no money even though I had lots of cash at one point. I probably need to destroy my inns and other buildings but I wanted to use them and the porcupines. It took a long time to build machines and now they're killing me with their undocumented expenses.

Even after losing quite a few crack troops and generals I'm still losing money.

[Winter Is Coming]

I realized that, after the game is over, if you choose to stay in the game and size down your kingdom, other kingdoms will emerge. The more you downsize, the more kingdoms emerge. I was able to have the game run indefinitely.

But money got a bit buggy with that. My money kept growing, independently of the economic performance of my kingdom.