Loading saves + Dragging bodies = No Ghost XP

[te47]

Since Mankind Divided first came out, I've regularly noticed that the Ghost XP bonus is often not rewarded even when the objective includes it and all rules were carefully followed. After very thorough testing, I've finally discovered the exact cause of this issue:

After you load any saved game, if you drag the body of any guard who provided XP for knocking out or killing them prior to the save being made, you cannot get the Ghost XP bonus for any upcoming objectives. I've tested this several times and have confirmed it with 100% certainty.

As dragging bodies is a key part of stealth, which is what the Ghost bonus is for, this is a very serious issue.

[Nixxes_Official]

Hi te47, we have forwarded this discovery for testing, since that does sound counter-intuitive to stealth gameplay. Can you mention where you located this, in case the issue is confined to a certain location?

[te47]

Originally posted by Nixxes_Official:

Hi te47, we have forwarded this discovery for testing, since that does sound counter-intuitive to stealth gameplay. Can you mention where you located this, in case the issue is confined to a certain location?

Thanks for the fast response. I initially confirmed this in the second visit to Prague, during the SM09: All in the Family side mission in the Dvali safehouse. I had a save just before incapacitating Dominik (an objective you can get Ghost on), and discovered this while trying to find the cause of my regular Ghost issues. I tried it several times both with and without dragging a frozen body, and the results were always the same. Ghost without dragging, no Ghost with.

I've since recreated this with total reliability in the first visit to Prague (M3: Getting in Top Shape Again), Golem City (M7: The Rucker Extraction), and the Apex Centre (M15: Securing the Convention Centre) using saves I already had. This can easily be recreated and confirmed simply by saving just before a Ghost trigger, getting Ghost, loading the save, dragging any body, and then trying to get Ghost. Ghost will no longer be attainable.

However, interestingly, the one time I couldn't recreate this was in Dubai (M1: Black Market Buy, (Secondary) Jam the Signal Booster). I was already used to that being the only mission I never had the Ghost issue with, and now I know why.

Hope this helps!

[Nixxes_Official]

Thank you, we've forwarded the additional information as well.

[te47]

Originally posted by Nixxes_Official:

Thank you, we've forwarded the additional information as well.

I've also just confirmed that the issue is the same for both unconscious and dead frozen bodies, and that the issue is still consistently happening after today's update (v1.16).

I really appreciate the support. This issue has been a nuisance using my default gameplay style since the game's launch, and it's taken me this long to finally determine the exact cause. I hope this information helps.

[te47]

I've confirmed that dragging unconscious or dead bodies after loading a save still wrongfully eliminates the Ghost XP bonus after today's patch (v1.17), unless starting a new game is necessary. The problem is the same. Anyone who was unconscious or dead at the time a save was made cannot be dragged after loading the save without losing the Ghost bonus.

[te47]

I started a new game on v1.17, hoping maybe the latest patch fixed it but only after a new game. Unfortunately, I already encountered the problem in Dubai (M1: Black Market Buy, (Secondary) Jam the Signal Booster). The issue is present on that mission, unlike what I previously thought, except that two of the six unconscious Jinn in my latest test (the two in the same room as the signal booster) don't negate the Ghost bonus when dragged. The rest do, and only one of the working two can be dragged before completing the objective. Interestingly, dragging both of them first does negate Ghost.

I also discovered that an unconscious police officer can be dragged without losing the Ghost bonus during the third visit to Prague (M14: Hunting Down the Final Clues). As far as I'm aware, that police officer and those two Jinn in Dubai are the only unconscious bodies that can be dragged without losing Ghost after loading a save. It's a near-universal issue.

Another important discovery I've made is that you can unfreeze frozen bodies using other physics objects, and you'll still get the Ghost bonus. However, dragging them before or after unfreezing them that way will still prevent you from getting Ghost. Whatever it is, it's something specific to the system for player body-dragging, not a global physics issue.

Just to reiterate, this issue never happens if no saved game is ever loaded. If I knew more about the engine's differentiation of pre-load versus post-load bodies and how they mix with the dragging system and Ghost criteria, I might be able to come up with an exact cause. But all I can do is troubleshoot this issue in-game as much as possible and share my findings. I hope any of this information helps.

[Gizmo Maniac]

Dont think it matters but what Direct X version are you using, 11 or 12?

[te47]

Originally posted by Gizmo Maniac:

Dont think it matters but what Direct X version are you using, 11 or 12?

I'm using 12 by default, but I've switched to 11 and confirmed that the issue still happens. I also tried starting a new game on 11, just in case the problem was in the saves made on 12, but the problem is identical.

[te47]

I've made another discovery that might be important. In M14: Hunting Down the Final Clues, it seems you can drag as many unconscious police officers around post-load as you like, and it won't affect the Ghost rating. As far as I know, the only difference between police and normal hostiles is that you don't get XP for knocking out or killing police. Since the Ghost bug is also an XP issue, this might somehow be related.

[te47]

I've been testing continuously, and so far, I still haven't found any unconscious or dead NPCs who both cause the Ghost problem and don't award any XP for knocking out or killing them. But aside from the two anomalous Jinn in the signal booster room in Dubai, every single XP hostile I've tested causes the Ghost problem post-load. Based on this, I think there has to be a connection.

I've been trying to think of plausible explanations. Maybe there's some kind of system in place to prevent you from getting any XP from already-neutralized XP hostiles after loading a game, and that system is overstepping and cancelling Ghost on interaction too? Or maybe dragging them is triggering the hostile collison flag that rightly prevents you from getting Ghost when bumping into conscious hostiles?

Whatever it is, it still happens when dragging an XP hostile post-load when everyone else is already unconscious, and that last dragged hostile is unconscious or dead. And it doesn't happen if the body is moved with any method other than direct player dragging. You can also still loot XP hostiles post-load without losing Ghost. There's something unique about the player dragging system that sets it off with almost total reliability after loading, and never before loading.

[te47]

I've confirmed that the Ghost bug is completely unaffected by the v1.18 update. Which in unsurprising, since it's an update to the Japanese language package for the System Rift DLC...

[te47]

To avoid having to sift through the many messages I've posted in this thread, here's a very concise version of what I know:

Any attempt to drag the unconscious or dead body of any guard who granted you XP for neutralizing him/her will universally prevent you from getting the Ghost XP bonus for the current objective (and often several after) if you do it after loading a saved game.


I wish I could express how serious this issue is for a stealth player whose main source of XP is non-lethal takedowns and who uses Ghost as confirmation of never being detected. I truly love Mankind Divided, but this one issue is making it impossible for me to enjoy it as I enjoy Human Revolution.

[te47]

The Ghost bug is still present in v1.19. Which is another Japanese language package update, so no surprise again.


Just to explain my commitment to trying everything possible to get this issue fixed, Deus Ex has strategically favored stealth (to conserve resources and health) and knocking everyone out (to get their stuff) since Deus Ex 1. Human Revolution took it a step further by giving you tons of XP for knocking everyone out, and tons of XP for getting Ghost. And there's no reason you can't do both. It's indisputably the best way to accumulate XP.

In Mankind Divided, you can still do both, and it's still the best way to accumulate XP. Except that if you're not extremely careful and not aware of the Ghost bug's cause, the simple act of hiding a body (a key element of stealth gameplay) will often ruin the Ghost bonus. And very cautious perfectionist stealth players tend to save and load more than anyone, and hide bodies more carefully than anyone, making this problem actually happen more for people who want to make absolutely sure they get Ghost.

I personally have found the best ways to avoid this issue entirely after extensive playtesting, but even I completely lose the option to move a fairly well-hidden body to a better hiding spot if I loaded a saved game anywhere along the way.

On behalf of everyone affected by this issue, please don't just let this pass. I'm still playing so much Mankind Divided, and will be for many years. And this issue is the only thing that really compromises the experience for me. I know others who feel the same way.

[Rαккī]

Do you guys know something about sm00 Neon Nights?
I did this mission even without saving/reloading, dragging bodys and at all times fully hidden/cloaked. I didnt even talked to the chemistry lady.

Still no Ghost.

[te47]

Originally posted by RakZak:

Do you guys know something about sm00 Neon Nights?
I did this mission even without saving/reloading, dragging bodys and at all times fully hidden/cloaked. I didnt even talked to the chemistry lady.

Still no Ghost.

I've noticed that, in some of the most densely-populated and/or open areas, it's still occasionally possible to lose Ghost without saving and loading if you decide to knock out every guard anyway. I'm not sure why, but on the rare occassion that it happens to me, I can usually load a save from just before that area, do it again, and get Ghost without problems.

The lab area in Neon Nights is actually one of the very few places in the game where I don't knock out and hide every guard (just a little too exposed and messy), and I always get Ghost.