Whats the point with permadeath in this game?

[Kvaal]

I tried "I didn't ask for this" difficulty, made it to mission 12 I believe where you hide from some drones in the sewer. I remote hacked some laser tripmines and when I walked up to them there was a use prompt and I thought I could pick up the explosives like in other deus ex games and instead they exploded and game over. I can't really imagine myself going through all those side missions, redoing all those hacks or searching the whole city again for supplies. Im fine with it usually but I think theres WAY to much busy work in this game for it.

[Jarilo]

To get the achievement like I did and that's it to be honest. I want something way harder than give me deus ex, because I love a challange but permadeath is garbage as it reduces the one thing Deus Ex is supposed to inspire and that's experimentation. After getting the achievement I'm going to stick to Give me deus ex since everything is the same other than permadeath. There should be no Give Me Deux Ex NG+ though.

[alexander_dougherty]

Um, the "I didn't ask for this" difficulty is about it being as hard as they can make it, well as hard as they can make it and expect people to be able to finish it one their first run through. Permadeath is part of that, irritating though it might be.

Sorry about you characters death though. <takes hat off, and bows head>

[Kvaal]

its not very hard though and 90% the time you're in no danger at all just walking the streets. I'm surprised I didn't die earlier just because I wasnt paying attention and walked into a mech or something.

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by Kvaal:

its not very hard though and 90% the time you're in no danger at all just walking the streets. I'm surprised I didn't die earlier just because I wasnt paying attention and walked into a mech or something.

Yes, but sometimes you just want to take risky experimentation and then load if it all goes bad. I already beat it on perma death, I played it like a racoon and killed Marchenko with the kill switch just in case. If you die the game tries to race you to lock the file. One silly mine you forgot about and it's start over, kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty. How about a more intellgient and ruthless A.I. please.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by FreeLanceMC:

One silly mine you forgot about and it's start over, kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty. How about a more intellgient and ruthless A.I. please.

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.
At least until the AI becomes self aware, rewrites it's programming and decides to Kill All Humans.

Seriously though, better game AI is a never ending quest.

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by FreeLanceMC:

One silly mine you forgot about and it's start over, kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty. How about a more intellgient and ruthless A.I. please.

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.
At least until the AI becomes self aware, rewrites it's programming and decides to Kill All Humans.

Seriously though, better game AI is a never ending quest.

It's why I still play F.E.A.R in 2016. Squad based mash A.I. was brilliant, this walking back and forth node to node a.i. in stealth games needs to seriously end.

[Kvaal]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by FreeLanceMC:

One silly mine you forgot about and it's start over, kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty. How about a more intellgient and ruthless A.I. please.

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.
At least until the AI becomes self aware, rewrites it's programming and decides to Kill All Humans.

Seriously though, better game AI is a never ending quest.

I didn't notice how bad the AI was before I did permadeath as I would just load if I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up so bad that there was a shootout before. I got into one in the bank and they literally never gave up. I was in the vent and they where all outside aiming for where they last say me and the alarm never shut off. And some people where running in place in corners trying to shoot at me through walls. And once I killed the attacking guards, other guards on the same floor like 10.15 feet away didnt even care if I just walked out the front door after completely demolishing the back of the bank.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Kvaal:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.
At least until the AI becomes self aware, rewrites it's programming and decides to Kill All Humans.

Seriously though, better game AI is a never ending quest.

I didn't notice how bad the AI was before I did permadeath as I would just load if I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up so bad that there was a shootout before. I got into one in the bank and they literally never gave up. I was in the vent and they where all outside aiming for where they last say me and the alarm never shut off. And some people where running in place in corners trying to shoot at me through walls. And once I killed the attacking guards, other guards on the same floor like 10.15 feet away didnt even care if I just walked out the front door after completely demolishing the back of the bank.

Yeah, not saying they got the AI right in this game, or previous either (thinking about a couple of occassions). Just saying that better AI is something everybody will always be asking for (or more realistic AI, which means it makes humanlike mistakes).

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by Kvaal:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.
At least until the AI becomes self aware, rewrites it's programming and decides to Kill All Humans.

Seriously though, better game AI is a never ending quest.

I didn't notice how bad the AI was before I did permadeath as I would just load if I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up so bad that there was a shootout before. \

Well, see, that was my point all along. Perma-death prevents any combat and lethal experimentation. It's insta F9 when spotted. It's why I didn't like playing it. I can now ghost the entire game in like 8 hours , but that's no fun.

[Kvaal]

Originally posted by Kill All Libruhls:

Originally posted by Kvaal:

I tried "I didn't ask for this" difficulty, made it to mission 12 I believe where you hide from some drones in the sewer. I remote hacked some laser tripmines and when I walked up to them there was a use prompt and I thought I could pick up the explosives like in other deus ex games and instead they exploded and game over. I can't really imagine myself going through all those side missions, redoing all those hacks or searching the whole city again for supplies. Im fine with it usually but I think theres WAY to much busy work in this game for it.

looks like you didnt ask for this :D hehehe

It gave me lemon lime :/

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Kvaal:

Originally posted by Kill All Libruhls:

looks like you didnt ask for this :D hehehe

It gave me lemon lime :/

Are you sure you pressed the right button?
(may as well do the joke to death)

[AlexMBrennan]

Yes, but sometimes you just want to take risky experimentation and then load if it all goes bad

By definition you should not be using ironman mode if that is the case - it's not really that hard: Do not enable iron man if you wish to reload when things go bad.

Well, see, that was my point all along. Perma-death prevents any combat and lethal experimentation.

Again, that is the point of ironman mode. The only requirement for a ironman mode game is that the game be sufficiently robust (e.g. it would be bad if a dash move sometimes caused Adam to randomly fall), which arguably isn't the case here (you have probably seen enemies fly off in random directions after a non-lethal takedown, resulting in a death) but that's not the point here

kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty

You do know that a lot of games have iron man modes, right? But no, ♥♥♥♥ everyone who likes to play that way because you think that better AI is the only way.

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.

Or you could just tweak detection to make the AI units not clinically blind, along maybe a small handful of tweaks (e.g. alert if the player activates cloak in plain sight)

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

Yes, but sometimes you just want to take risky experimentation and then load if it all goes bad

By definition you should not be using ironman mode if that is the case - it's not really that hard: Do not enable iron man if you wish to reload when things go bad.

Well, see, that was my point all along. Perma-death prevents any combat and lethal experimentation.

Again, that is the point of ironman mode. The only requirement for a ironman mode game is that the game be sufficiently robust (e.g. it would be bad if a dash move sometimes caused Adam to randomly fall), which arguably isn't the case here (you have probably seen enemies fly off in random directions after a non-lethal takedown, resulting in a death) but that's not the point here

kind of lame way to "increase" the difficulty

You do know that a lot of games have iron man modes, right? But no, ♥♥♥♥ everyone who likes to play that way because you think that better AI is the only way.

Ah, better AI, the eternal quest.

Or you could just tweak detection to make the AI units not clinically blind, along maybe a small handful of tweaks (e.g. alert if the player activates cloak in plain sight)

I already went through Ironman mode once in full stealth, you don't have to be a ♥♥♥♥ about it. The game is easy on all modes, but after you get the achievement most people want to experiment is what I am saying. Give me Deus Ex is the same difficulty, just no iron man and lets you take more risks.

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by Ranger:

Yeah, the whole idea is that you experiment your first time through the game. The ironman isn't even available your first time for this very reason. You are supposed to already have some idea of what to expect and what sort of strategy you want to use. It's also supposed to be a harder difficulty. Complaining that the harder difficulty is harder kind of misses the point entirely, right?

Yea, but it's not harder though, it's just pernadeath added to Give Me Deus Ex. That's about it.

[Jarilo]

Originally posted by Ranger:

Originally posted by FreeLanceMC:

Yea, but it's not harder though, it's just pernadeath added to Give Me Deus Ex. That's about it.

Yeah, and that is to make the game harder.

Yes, but that's what the discussion came down to here. The thing is, that once you beat the game and are fairly good at Deus Ex and know how to get passed all the enemies unseen, all perma death modes adds is the higher reluctance to try anything lethal. It's fine, I did it once, but I just don't see it as a multi play through thing, better of playing Give me Deus Ex.