Buddy's Logic

[FulvousFox]

Brad: *quits Joy entirely to save Buddy*

Brad: *loses both arms trying to save Buddy*

Brad: *protects Buddy from men who just want to use her*

Brad: *fights almost an army of men to get to her*

Brad: *spares the lives of his past friends, even though they betrayed him*

Buddy: "You clearly suck and don't love me"

[Lucky Kharms]

Originally posted by cccmgr:

However, Buzzo kinda has the point there, doesn't he? 3 lives over a single flesh wound... doesn't killing off your party members make Brad a real monster? I didn't do that because it just seemed illogical to me - is there any difference in Buddy's reaction later in the game?

Not from Buddy but Brad's dialogue after you rescue her from Mr. Angoneli is slightly different. (Okay so I chose the nipple once just to see what would happen. Never again though)
As for the rest, I thought it was already pretty clear Brad's an illogical monster by that point. Lol
Besides, that situation called for emotion over logic if I ever saw it.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Lornoth:

Originally posted by cccmgr:

However, Buzzo kinda has the point there, doesn't he? 3 lives over a single flesh wound... doesn't killing off your party members make Brad a real monster? I didn't do that because it just seemed illogical to me - is there any difference in Buddy's reaction later in the game?

Not from Buddy but Brad's dialogue after you rescue her from Mr. Angoneli is slightly different. (Okay so I chose the nipple once just to see what would happen. Never again though)
As for the rest, I thought it was already pretty clear Brad's an illogical monster by that point. Lol
Besides, that situation called for emotion over logic if I ever saw it.

Actually reached this dialogue at the end of my third playthrough, earlier today. Brad enquires about Buddy's "...chest", to which she responds dismissively that she's "not a princess".

I remember physically recoiling when given the choice by Buzzo on my first playthrough, it seemed so completely unthinkable. It's nice that Brad references it, later in the game. He clearly carries the guilt with him.

[EverDownward]

Originally posted by ribbonedskies:

It's probably because I really relate to the whole addict thing.

We are definitely of different perspectives then. I also know what it's like to have parents that are addicts. My father was an alcoholic too, for reference.

I've had well over a decade of experience dealing with something like this, starting from when I was 13 and I'm 27 now. Yes, addiction is a terrible, ugly thing that makes you blind to any and all around you but I understand that these terrible actions stem from the addiction, NOT the actual person. My parents are/were good as gold when sober, and it's incredibly obvious that Brad is a legitimately good person. We can see this as evidenced from when he was a kid and protected his friends. Fast forward to years later with Buddy and he

1) Tries to stop doing Joy
2) Makes a mask for Buddy so she CAN see the outside world, even though Lisa, Brad's sister, was never ever allowed to leave period.
3) Does things to cheer Buddy up from being so isolated from the outside world, like indulging her childlike games.

Brad isn't some monster, far from it. And the actions he does later are because of the situations he's put in in order to save Buddy from a life of death or far worse. We don't know if Brad would have eventually let Buddy go off, but from what we are shown we can understand that Brad really did try to be different from his father and raise Buddy the best that he could.

What I wanna know is where you're getting this info that Brad yelled at her and especially "guilt-tripped" her.

[zoe!]

Originally posted by EverDownward:

Originally posted by ribbonedskies:

What I wanna know is where you're getting this info that Brad yelled at her and especially "guilt-tripped" her.

Well, for the first part, I wrote that comment fairly quickly without proof reading it and thinking it over.

Yeah, Brad's a good dad when he's not on Joy or drinking. As many addicts can be. As you may notice, when Buddy puts on makeup on the boys - we aren't shown that Brad has done any joy before that. But during the first part of the game, we see Brad giving in to his addiction and Buddy runs off. Brad goes outside and, even though we don't see any text, we assume he's yelling at Buddy. She goes off and cries in her bedroom.

Brad is a flawed person. He isn't neccesarily a "good" person but nor is he bad. He kills many people during his adventure to find Buddy, a good example of that is near the very end of the game. And Buddy doesn't know he did all that to find her, from her point of view it just looks like he's evil. Brad's father was a awful dad but Brad learned some of his own parenting tips from him. He didn't want to be like his own dad, but he doesn't know anything about how to parent children besides from what his father had shown him. And that shown through throughout the game. Even though he was doing that because of the situation, he still did it. He still killed people. Example being the construction area with the bulldozer. You can't really justify that scene.

It seems like Buddy, while happy to be on the outside, doesn't want to be confined in a stuffy mask. The question I ask is why, while she's childlike and hasn't grown any curves, Brad didn't try to make Buddy look as boyish as possible so she could see the outside. And why didn't he explain to her why she couldn't go outside than just saying that it was dangerous. That's never enough to satisfy anyone's curiosity.

Children often think of people from a black and white perspective, and it's assumed Buddy is around 9 or 10. Someone did something bad to them, they're mean. Someone did something nice, they're good. Buddy was shown all of these bad things about Brad rather than all the good. It might've been totally different outcome if Buddy was shown these good things that Brad's done for her. Plus, when people are angry at another - they often forget all of the good and nice things they've done for them. Basically being blinded by their anger.

Brad did do the best he could - when he wasn't on joy. People who are addicted and are currently using that substance daily can't really be their absolute best.

Guilt trip was a poor use of words and I apologize for that, it was like four a.m.

But anyways, everyone has different perspectives of games and what they mean to them. I'm sure both you and I have different experiences with alchohlism in our families and we both responded to them differently. And that's not a bad thing at all. LISA is an extremely controversial game and people will always find new ways to respond to what it shows them.

[Paco]

Brad is just a human being who ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up a lot whilst trying to do the best for his daughter.

He isolated her to keep her safe from the men who would rape and torment her, but this obviously is not good for the mental health of a child.

He did not give her to the Rando army because he wanted to get another chance at defending Lisa, and Buddy was it, but he also didn't know Rando was his son nor that they would treat her like a human being.

He kept doing drugs because without them all he could think about was Marty's constant abuse of both him and Lisa and, of course, of Lisa's suicide. This was a good, seemingly harmless escape for him but of course affected his behavior towards Buddy (he neglected her whilst on joy and booze as we see in the intro).

He killed those who got in the way of trying to rescue Buddy from the outside world's harm and even almost killed his childhood friend to find out where she was, this is in a gray moral area for obvious reasons.

He abused Bo's obliviousness to his brother's death to make him help him and held a man hostage from his lover for his help, all in order to increase his chances in finding and rescuing Buddy.

He murders his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ father, which I personally believe is justified, but also hurts Buddy whilst doing it. Keep in mind that at this point he was already being affected by all the joy he took. Buddy didn't and will never know what Marty did to Lisa and Brad, so this to her is just the murder of a man who was only good to her.

There's also the player made choices, which include sacrificing a man for Brad's physical well being or saving a man despite losing an arm and killing three innocent(ish) men or cutting Buddy's nippe off. Which are the morally superior ones is subjective.

All Buddy ever knew of him was what Sticky and Rick told her about him, that he was an addict and kept "the world's last hope" from it. Her mind was filled with absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ from the beginning and being a child she believed it, as children do.

[Malagon]

My one complaint about this game was the unrealistic depiction of Buddy's personality. Given their history and all the subsequent things he did to protect her, Buddy's shockingly low opinion of Brad made absolutely no sense, and frankly it ruined the game for me. Bit by bit, as the game progressed and I watched Buddy's hatred for Brad be reinforced over and over again, I began caring less and less about saving her. By the end of Lisa I was completely disconnected from the main quest and told myself just to finish it so I could say I did it, but I really had no desire to save Buddy. Even at the end she was still ungrateful. Their character growth had so much potential, which is a real shame since the rest of the game is A++.

When I thought of Buddy I kept being reminded of that bratty and overly emo/angry kid in the new season of The Strain. The son is played by a different actor than the first season, and he's horrible. Every review of his character is overwhelmingly negative because he is one-dimensional and he is mad at his dad in every scene. The show's explanation for his emorage is unconvincing and weak, and by now, every time he comes on screen I just want him to go away. Lisa has the same problem.

Nothing Brad did ingame was evidence enough to explain Buddy's behavior. Either she was already unbalanced or he damaged her when we couldn't see it which I don't believe he would have done. Sheltering a child does not cause her to develop a resentful personality like Buddy's. It just doesn't happen. It breeds ignorance and creates naive adults, but not sheer resentment and anger. It was over the top.

The creator really missed the mark with Buddy.

[cccmar]

Originally posted by Zepheyr:

My one complaint about this game was the unrealistic depiction of Buddy's personality. Given their history and all the subsequent things he did to protect her, Buddy's shockingly low opinion of Brad made absolutely no sense, and frankly it ruined the game for me. Bit by bit, as the game progressed and I watched Buddy's hatred for Brad be reinforced over and over again, I began caring less and less about saving her. By the end of Lisa I was completely disconnected from the main quest and told myself just to finish it so I could say I did it, but I really had no desire to save Buddy. Even at the end she was still ungrateful. Their character growth had so much potential, which is a real shame since the rest of the game is A++.

When I thought of Buddy I kept being reminded of that bratty and overly emo/angry kid in the new season of The Strain. The son is played by a different actor than the first season, and he's horrible. Every review of his character is overwhelmingly negative because he is one-dimensional and he is mad at his dad in every scene. The show's explanation for his emorage is unconvincing and weak, and by now, every time he comes on screen I just want him to go away. Lisa has the same problem.

Nothing Brad did ingame was evidence enough to explain Buddy's behavior. Either she was already unbalanced or he damaged her when we couldn't see it which I don't believe he would have done. Sheltering a child does not cause her to develop a resentful personality like Buddy's. It just doesn't happen. It breeds ignorance and creates naive adults, but not sheer resentment and anger. It was over the top.

The creator really missed the mark with Buddy.

I wonder what the game would've looked like if we could see Rando's perspective on the whole thing. As to Buddy, it is true up to a certain point. I mean, on the one hand Brad basically went to hell and back to save her and we know that (although he did in fact commit quite a few dubious deeds on the way), but on the other hand, she only sees a murderous, unstable man trying to force her back into captivity, because she doesn't know what he went through (he didn't really make any effort to explain himself either). Being dubbed a saviour by pretty much every person apart from Brad must've damaged her even further. Besides, Brad is not really the most reliable protagonist from the point of view of the story, with his drug withdrawals, hallucinations and whatnot. Also, he failed to protect his sister and later on his student, he succumbed to drugs and alcohol, and then murdered his own father who saved Buddy from drowning in front of her (if it wasn't a hallucination, which I doubt), and murdered a bunch of men whom she trusted, including Rando. Because of him pretty much she will have to fend for herself in this unfriendly world. I think that the perception of the events in this game depends largely on who you sympathize with, and I for one didn't care as much for him as I did for her, because he is just not a good person. Be that as it may, I can understand your point of view. Maybe she's a bit too petulant.

[Malagon]

Originally posted by cccmgr:

Originally posted by Zepheyr:

My one complaint about this game was the unrealistic depiction of Buddy's personality. Given their history and all the subsequent things he did to protect her, Buddy's shockingly low opinion of Brad made absolutely no sense, and frankly it ruined the game for me. Bit by bit, as the game progressed and I watched Buddy's hatred for Brad be reinforced over and over again, I began caring less and less about saving her. By the end of Lisa I was completely disconnected from the main quest and told myself just to finish it so I could say I did it, but I really had no desire to save Buddy. Even at the end she was still ungrateful. Their character growth had so much potential, which is a real shame since the rest of the game is A++.

When I thought of Buddy I kept being reminded of that bratty and overly emo/angry kid in the new season of The Strain. The son is played by a different actor than the first season, and he's horrible. Every review of his character is overwhelmingly negative because he is one-dimensional and he is mad at his dad in every scene. The show's explanation for his emorage is unconvincing and weak, and by now, every time he comes on screen I just want him to go away. Lisa has the same problem.

Nothing Brad did ingame was evidence enough to explain Buddy's behavior. Either she was already unbalanced or he damaged her when we couldn't see it which I don't believe he would have done. Sheltering a child does not cause her to develop a resentful personality like Buddy's. It just doesn't happen. It breeds ignorance and creates naive adults, but not sheer resentment and anger. It was over the top.

The creator really missed the mark with Buddy.

I wonder what the game would've looked like if we could see Rando's perspective on the whole thing. As to Buddy, it is true up to a certain point. I mean, on the one hand Brad basically went to hell and back to save her and we know that (although he did in fact commit quite a few dubious deeds on the way), but on the other hand, she only sees a murderous, unstable man trying to force her back into captivity, because she doesn't know what he went through (he didn't really make any effort to explain himself either). Being dubbed a saviour by pretty much every person apart from Brad must've damaged her even further. Besides, Brad is not really the most reliable protagonist from the point of view of the story, with his drug withdrawals, hallucinations and whatnot. Also, he failed to protect his sister and later on his student, he succumbed to drugs and alcohol, and then murdered his own father who saved Buddy from drowning in front of her (if it wasn't a hallucination, which I doubt), and murdered a bunch of men whom she trusted, including Rando. Because of him pretty much she will have to fend for herself in this unfriendly world. I think that the perception of the events in this game depends largely on who you sympathize with, and I for one didn't care as much for him as I did for her, because he is just not a good person. Be that as it may, I can understand your point of view. Maybe she's a bit too petulant.

I understand your justification for Buddy's behavior, but I'm just not buying it. It's weak. Children don't hate their guardians on Buddy's level unless something profoundly terrible happens to them under their guardian's care. Its unnatural behavior.

But Buddy had a sheltered life. NOTHING bad happened to her under Brad's care. Then, shortly after being KIDNAPPED and watching her closest friends be MURDERED, she has a complete 180 personality shift and all of a sudden her father (who is protecting her) is the source of all her pain (that she now suddenly has) and she no longer trusts him and she believes EVERYTHING people say about him. It's like having a lifelong, loving relationship with your parents and then one day being kidnapped by some thugs, and when your kidnappers tell you that your parents suck you side with them and decide to blame your lot in life (which you have now decided is bad) on your mom and dad, and you tell your folks to ♥♥♥♥ off and you want nothing to do with them cause these kidnappers rock. Yea right. It is a total leap of crazy to buy the idea of Buddy going from happy sheltered family time to "my father hurt me more than anyone else in the world." The rationale and character development is completely missing.

Buddy would have to be really, really dumb to jump across the spectrum like that and truly believe it. That's why I'm not buying it and that's why I felt disconnected from her by the end of the game. She just made no sense. I see where the idea came from but it missed the mark in execution.

It is entirely possible I am overreacting but I liked this game, therefore I am more critical. Lisa had great writing and a great story, so I just don't understand where the failure with Buddy occurred when we had such a talented designer. I have never disliked or otherwise been indifferent towards the object of my quest, much less when I am rescuing a child. I shouldn't be disconnected from the very reason my character is living, but that's what happened.

[hahaisfunny]

i must say that Buddy hava a bad life after doomsday. everything just look dark and full of ♥♥♥♥.
But opposite to Lisa who was abused so hard by Marty (record VHS), she has much good luck and be cared by her family. So on she just face the truth or lies, something mixed the good and evil. At the same time Buddy escaped from Brad with guilt and confused, a hug you give or not only tell me she doesn't really know what she want to do

[cccmar]

Originally posted by Zepheyr:

Originally posted by cccmgr:

I wonder what the game would've looked like if we could see Rando's perspective on the whole thing. As to Buddy, it is true up to a certain point. I mean, on the one hand Brad basically went to hell and back to save her and we know that (although he did in fact commit quite a few dubious deeds on the way), but on the other hand, she only sees a murderous, unstable man trying to force her back into captivity, because she doesn't know what he went through (he didn't really make any effort to explain himself either). Being dubbed a saviour by pretty much every person apart from Brad must've damaged her even further. Besides, Brad is not really the most reliable protagonist from the point of view of the story, with his drug withdrawals, hallucinations and whatnot. Also, he failed to protect his sister and later on his student, he succumbed to drugs and alcohol, and then murdered his own father who saved Buddy from drowning in front of her (if it wasn't a hallucination, which I doubt), and murdered a bunch of men whom she trusted, including Rando. Because of him pretty much she will have to fend for herself in this unfriendly world. I think that the perception of the events in this game depends largely on who you sympathize with, and I for one didn't care as much for him as I did for her, because he is just not a good person. Be that as it may, I can understand your point of view. Maybe she's a bit too petulant.

I understand your justification for Buddy's behavior, but I'm just not buying it. It's weak. Children don't hate their guardians on Buddy's level unless something profoundly terrible happens to them under their guardian's care. Its unnatural behavior.

But Buddy had a sheltered life. NOTHING bad happened to her under Brad's care. Then, shortly after being KIDNAPPED and watching her closest friends be MURDERED, she has a complete 180 personality shift and all of a sudden her father (who is protecting her) is the source of all her pain (that she now suddenly has) and she no longer trusts him and she believes EVERYTHING people say about him. It's like having a lifelong, loving relationship with your parents and then one day being kidnapped by some thugs, and when your kidnappers tell you that your parents suck you side with them and decide to blame your lot in life (which you have now decided is bad) on your mom and dad, and you tell your folks to ♥♥♥♥ off and you want nothing to do with them cause these kidnappers rock. Yea right. It is a total leap of crazy to buy the idea of Buddy going from happy sheltered family time to "my father hurt me more than anyone else in the world." The rationale and character development is completely missing.

Buddy would have to be really, really dumb to jump across the spectrum like that and truly believe it. That's why I'm not buying it and that's why I felt disconnected from her by the end of the game. She just made no sense. I see where the idea came from but it missed the mark in execution.

It is entirely possible I am overreacting but I liked this game, therefore I am more critical. Lisa had great writing and a great story, so I just don't understand where the failure with Buddy occurred when we had such a talented designer. I have never disliked or otherwise been indifferent towards the object of my quest, much less when I am rescuing a child. I shouldn't be disconnected from the very reason my character is living, but that's what happened.

Well, at least you can hug him and offer him a brief moment of respite (although I personally don't think she would've hugged him in her state, and it is debatable if he deserves a hug at all).

Anyhow, I see what you mean, it's quite rare for the victim to sympathize with the kidnapper/s (I believe this phenomenon is called the Stockholm syndrome - it does happen from time to time in real life). It's just that we don't know so many things about Olathe... in fact, we don't know much about her 'uncles' and their role in her upbringing. I can imagine they had to have a pretty big role though, since Brad would most likely often go on his binges or get high and forget about the world. I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that Buddy isn't as innocent as it would seem at a first glance. She's been most likely taking Joy for a while, and we all know what it means. I can only imagine that Buddy's only desire at that time was to be free, and Joy brings out the user's innermost desires, as is the case with Brad. I like your justification as well, although it is definitely more pragmatic and I do not fully subscribe to it. Perhaps the sequel will answer these questions - I do agree that she should've been fleshed out more in the first game, but what can you do... I'm probably delving into this whole thing too much, but it is interesting to see how different people interpret the events in games, literature or movies, so thanks for the discussion. ^^

[Commissar Jake]

Well the events that really matter.

Brad shouts at Buddy like an insane man inside a cave.
Brad lets his friends get killed or lets a mad man mutilate her.
Brad outright murderlates the only other person who was nice to her after kicking her in the face.

And lets not forget, childrens emotions are volatile, very little would really be needed for her to want to be as far away as possible from Brad. But really, Murderin Marty was what made her run directly to the Rando Army,

[Lucky Kharms]

Originally posted by Zepheyr:

I understand your justification for Buddy's behavior, but I'm just not buying it. It's weak. Children don't hate their guardians on Buddy's level unless something profoundly terrible happens to them under their guardian's care. Its unnatural behavior.

But Buddy had a sheltered life. NOTHING bad happened to her under Brad's care. Then, shortly after being KIDNAPPED and watching her closest friends be MURDERED, she has a complete 180 personality shift and all of a sudden her father (who is protecting her) is the source of all her pain (that she now suddenly has) and she no longer trusts him and she believes EVERYTHING people say about him. It's like having a lifelong, loving relationship with your parents and then one day being kidnapped by some thugs, and when your kidnappers tell you that your parents suck you side with them and decide to blame your lot in life (which you have now decided is bad) on your mom and dad, and you tell your folks to ♥♥♥♥ off and you want nothing to do with them cause these kidnappers rock. Yea right. It is a total leap of crazy to buy the idea of Buddy going from happy sheltered family time to "my father hurt me more than anyone else in the world." The rationale and character development is completely missing.

Buddy would have to be really, really dumb to jump across the spectrum like that and truly believe it. That's why I'm not buying it and that's why I felt disconnected from her by the end of the game. She just made no sense. I see where the idea came from but it missed the mark in execution.

It is entirely possible I am overreacting but I liked this game, therefore I am more critical. Lisa had great writing and a great story, so I just don't understand where the failure with Buddy occurred when we had such a talented designer. I have never disliked or otherwise been indifferent towards the object of my quest, much less when I am rescuing a child. I shouldn't be disconnected from the very reason my character is living, but that's what happened.

You don't consider watching him slaughter everybody that was ever nice to her to be bad? Her closest friends were murdered by Brad mate, if you forgot. And she wasn't kidnapped to my knowledge, she went willingly because they told her she was going to save the world.

Besides, it was never shown that they had a particularly good relationship. We know they never hugged, and Brad never felt a particularly loving relationship between them anyway. She even seems angry at him at times during the opening sequence because she can't leave her hole in the ground.
And also keep in mind she doesn't know he's protecting her by the end of the game. She thinks Rando, and Martin, and Sticky and Rick are protecting her. Brad is the ever more literal monster chasing her down and stopping her from fulfilling her destiny to save mankind. (from her perspective)

[rock]

I think the ending is very similar to the Last of the Us, only taking the other viewpoint. Brad sacrificed everyone and everything just so he could feel better about himself. I don't think he really loved Buddy, and instead used her as a stand in for Lisa. Possibly due to the joy taking a hold and mutating him, but even before that. He was even willing to kill Rando, among many others, who probably had the best intentions for Buddy, was his favorite student, and didn't even want to fight Brad, just to get Buddy back. Brad was very selfish, even when losing both arms, because it did not matter to him what Buddy wanted or needed, only what he wanted. If you have played the Last of Us, the events are similar, but the message is different.

I enjoyed Lisa's ending more.

Also to throw it out there, the intro showed Brad heavily drinking and passing out. It's entirely possible he was a terrible parent due to his drug abuse and alcoholism, and that is what Buddy saw the most out of Brad. It wasn't always bad, but most likely Brad wasn't a good father. It's just the game skips most of that because Brad thought he was doing the right thing the entire time. And as someone pointed out, Brad is hardly a reliable narrator. There's also some indication that Brad was in some way responsible for Lisa's death, which is why Buzzo wants to do terrible things to him.

[Paco]

Originally posted by RockTheShoulder:

I think the ending is very similar to the Last of the Us, only taking the other viewpoint. Brad sacrificed everyone and everything just so he could feel better about himself. I don't think he really loved Buddy, and instead used her as a stand in for Lisa. Possibly due to the joy taking a hold and mutating him, but even before that. He was even willing to kill Rando, among many others, who probably had the best intentions for Buddy, was his favorite student, and didn't even want to fight Brad, just to get Buddy back. Brad was very selfish, even when losing both arms, because it did not matter to him what Buddy wanted or needed, only what he wanted. If you have played the Last of Us, the events are similar, but the message is different.

I enjoyed Lisa's ending more.

Also to throw it out there, the intro showed Brad heavily drinking and passing out. It's entirely possible he was a terrible parent due to his drug abuse and alcoholism, and that is what Buddy saw the most out of Brad. It wasn't always bad, but most likely Brad wasn't a good father. It's just the game skips most of that because Brad thought he was doing the right thing the entire time. And as someone pointed out, Brad is hardly a reliable narrator. There's also some indication that Brad was in some way responsible for Lisa's death, which is why Buzzo wants to do terrible things to him.

I doubt Brad had anything to do with Lisa's suicide, the only thing you could say about it is that he didn't stop Marty from abusing her.