Why does Joyful feel so badly written compared to Painful? [Spoilers I guess?]

[Riley]

Surely I can't be the only one who see's the obvious downgrade in Joyful over Painful. I heard the game play was terrible in comparison, it's a lot shorter etc, but honestly I just wanted closure surrounding a lot of topics that the base game didn't give, like the ♥♥♥♥ was up with Buzzo and the white flash? Maybe more about joy mutants and Rando, Brad's backstory and stuff with Lisa.

But man, I almost feel like I regret having experienced Joyful's story and would've been better having never touched it. I love Painful a lot, and while it's certainly not the best story ever told it's genuinely well written at times, well paced, has good humour and I think tells a pretty solid tale of a broken man with a tragic past fighting against himself and the world while attempting to atone for the sins of his past and what he believes is right in a world gone wrong. The main contention I have is with Buddy being an absolutely awfully written character, legit feels like her entire attitude changed from a naive wide eyed girl who just wanted to be free and able to experience life for herself into a bratty, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ murder hobo edge lord just being a terrible human being for the sake of it to anyone and everyone, even those trying to actually help her out of concern in zero time at all given it picks up right after the main game ends. I couldn't help but cringe at so many points, the whole "Even though I'm just a dumb kid who didn't know anything about the world until recently, I know whats best for me and I'm strong!" Just makes her come across like a mary sue self insert, i dunno perhaps the guy who wrote it thought this was cool at the time, or maybe he just young and thought this is what a strong female character is however I can't get over how well told the first game is comparatively. It feels like such a major departure in quality overall.

Then there was Buzzo, man, what an actual disappointment of potential he turned out to be in Joyful. It really feels like the game should've been about Rando/Dusty since he also uses the Armstrong style, getting pay back on Buzzo for his face and for torturing Brad with Joy/mentally through his journey. Rando was the only person attempting to fix the world from what I remember, purposely burning bodies I assume so they couldn't become mutants, creating an army to at least form some kind of order in the wasteland, dunno just seems like a better route than what we got. The ending of the DE is also so much worse than the original Joyful ending.

[Okami42]

I think a lot of the critique you have for Buddy should be viewed differently. She has been sheltered her entire life and the only people who actually seemed to be "helping" her at points, like Brad or Buzzo or Rando, ended up being the ones who hurt her just the same. So I feel it's totally reasonable for her to have very strong trust issues, which is why she was so incredibly hesitant in trusting Rando.
After going through what she has, being passed around from person to person with barely anyone having good intentions, of course she would be angry at the world, don't you think? If, through her view, no one has ever been genuinely kind and altruistic enough to help her in that world, why would she be the same way towards others? Doesn't it seem totally logical to despise everyone automatically after going through so much trauma, caused by everyone around her?
I agree that Joyful is much weaker than Painful, but I think you're oversimplifying Buddy as a character and overlooking all that has caused her to behave in the way she does. It's not like she never has any moments of compassion or friendliness (like towards Rando), so we can clearly see that, despite her understandably hating everything and everyone around her (for valid reason), she still wishes to have someone close to her. It's just incredibly difficult.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. :)

[Wolf]

I think it feels badly written because there isn't much writing at all. The game is like 2 hours long, and most of that runtime is consumed by stabbing people or running back from the list to Crossroads 1 or 2.

Buzzo sucks because Austin was trying to set up that "Lisa is actually worse than Marty" thing, which let Buzzo get away with not actually atoning for much, and blaming all his actions on a dead child abuse victim. DE's ending would almost be decent if Buzzo didn't say "I want my binky I want my mommy." He could have just been calling out to Lisa still and it would have read as him saying it in disbelief instead of desperation.

I think Buddy is actually OK despite being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ edgelord, she was raised by Brad to being on edge about everyone, and now she is hopped up on a drug that makes it's users hyper-aggressive. Killing Rando was a mercy killing, her dialogue sounds really bad for that though. It is "thematic" for the end of Olathe to be at the hands of a character who is basically a mirror character to Lisa, both in-universe and out.

I think Austin really just should have spent longer on Joyful, but that's the thing; I don't think he wanted to, he used up all his good ideas for gameplay and lots of story moments on Painful and just wanted to wrap up the story ASAP.

[Dadalama]

Originally posted by Wolf:

I think Austin really just should have spent longer on Joyful, but that's the thing; I don't think he wanted to.

I don't remember where I read it but I think in the past Austen has said as much himself. And it shows, it has great music and interesting ideas but it felt like stretch goal obligation. Like that fortress thing in Pillars of Eternity that I vaguely remember.

Edit: Saw the new ending. I actually thought it was well done. I think at least Buddy grew a bit this time.

[Esper-ame]

Joyful isn't worth the time and does damage to the Painful narrative. It's best quality is the few tracks it added to the OST.

I only have two memorable moments from joyful and they are both boss fights. One being good because it was cool(Lincoln) and the other really bad because it was narratively abhorrent.

[DuckieMcduck]

Joyful is not bad per se. It was a stretch goal in the Kickstarter and wraps up some of the loose ends of Painful, but that's all it was for.

Buddy goes into murder hobo mode because that's what her family, Brad and co, taught her to do. If she remained "naive" and just a little girl it would throw away the narrative of inherited abuse which is why the game is called LISA at all. She turns bitter and indifferent about people, the following manslaughter is merely an explicit showcase of such turnout.

Painful stands on its own, and content wise it obviously is much more charged than Joyful. That's why it that one is an expansion pack rather than a standalone game.

Then there was Buzzo, man, what an actual disappointment of potential he turned out to be in Joyful. It really feels like the game should've been about Rando/Dusty since he also uses the Armstrong style, getting pay back on Buzzo for his face and for torturing Brad with Joy/mentally through his journey

Buzzo is another character that was caught in the abusive cycle of the Armstrong family, hence he needed the closure as well. His attack against Rando and Brad was out of a twisted sense of "Justice" rather than sheer psychopathy. Buzzo stays rather consistent with this.

Rando is the only character who "withstood" the abuse by the Armstrongs in their formative years without corrupting themselves but he still suffered at their hands to the very end. Him turning into a main character would be the ultimate Mary Sue; Joyful instead shows that despite his inhuman fortitude, his issue is being weak willed and ultimately unable to stop anything (he didn't actually have much of a say back when his face was ripped, and he didn't have much of a say when Buddy was kidnapped, when Brad confronted him, or when Buddy turned abusive).

Joyful went out to show that indeed all main characters wished to do good but went astray for it at some point. As far as I'm aware, the only slapstick punching-bag "Evil" character in the game is Yado. In that regard, it did ok. Just wasn't as fun of a game.

[a ham getting eaten by ants]

I didn't really like the original ending, otherwise I think the writing is pretty great. This new ending fixes a lot of my problems with it, and gave me a lot of new perspective on the story.

[Neko Chan]

Damn, here we go again.

[Av]

tbh I think the fact that Buddy talks so much is why so many people hate Joyful over Painful. Brad talks, but not all that much. He isn't a silent protagonist, but he acts like one most of the time.

[Dadalama]

Watching both the new endings though, Austen seems to be wanting to break into more overtly surreal stuff like he was doing in the First. I hadn't heard ♥♥♥♥ about Ninja Tears in a while, wonder if he's doing something else?

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Dadalama:

I hadn't heard ♥♥♥♥ about Ninja Tears in a while, wonder if he's doing something else?

Don't get your hopes up

[Cracker]

I agree

[Toblo1]

Originally posted by Neko Chan:

Damn, here we go again.

Its like we never left 2015 with the ol Joyful!Buddy discourse.

Its almost comforting, in a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up way.

Originally posted by Dadalama:

Watching both the new endings though, Austen seems to be wanting to break into more overtly surreal stuff like he was doing in the First. I hadn't heard ♥♥♥♥ about Ninja Tears in a while, wonder if he's doing something else?

I'm still on the "DE Was A De-Rusting Project For Austin" theory train, personally.

[Pumpinks the Pump]

I don't have an issue with Buddy turning into a murderous psycho, I think it's a very natural progression of her character when you take everything in consideration and fits the themes of the cycle of abuse that the LISA series has.

The key issue here is the progression, Buddy goes from a relatively normal girl to an unhinged bratty ♥♥♥♥ in a matter of seconds, there's nothing in between of that and it feels incredibly unnatural, she has no arc or journey whatsoever like Brad did, and it doesn't help that, after replaying the game, I noticed how little she gets punished for the awful things she does.

This is all just made worse in the new ending of the Definitive Edition that is just straight up fanfic-tier writing to me, it legit felt like it was written by someone else and solely done as an attempt to overly correct Austin's old statements regarding Lisa being a terrible person, it basically ruined Buzzo's character and made what once was a very interesting villain into a humiliated cry baby getting roasted by a 12 years old that also did horrible things.

All this is just me going over Buddy and not talking about other problems like Rando being a wasted character here (you can literally skip his death event by just not interacting with the rock, leaving the entire thing without closure). I always thought that Joyful was bad, both gameplay and storywise, but the original version at least had some salvageable stuff that I enjoyed, like the ending being okay, the Definitive Edition however just straight up made it worse and actively made me wish I didn't play the DLC of what is one of my favorite RPGS of all time which is really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sad and disappointing.

[Coballudo]

Buddy character development is rushed in order to convey the themes and main idea of the game in the short span of a DLC, it is pretty bad compared to painful, but i still aprecciate it, not everything is awful in Joyful, one of my highlights is the soundtrack, wich i consider to be on par with the painful one, even having some of my favorite lisa songs. I did not see the new endings, i hope they are good

[Heartbreak K]

Austin was doing a weird thing with Joyful where he wanted to paint Lisa in an antagonistic role for manipulating Buzzo, which is a really weird direction to take a sexually abused little girl.

The new secret ending in Joyful feels like a bit of a retcon, which might be controversial especially to those who really like Buzzo, but I get why Austin did it. Artists may not agree with their previous work anymore, and I can respect the decisions to change things in DE (Even if it's behind an absurdly cryptic puzzle... I have no idea how anyone is supposed to find it on their own.)

As for Buddy, I think her sudden personality change is a bit jarring but it does make sense considering her situation. I like how they establish that Brad forgoed teaching her karate and instead how to swiftly kill. She probably killed a lot of people off screen before the events of Painful. ("Next time, he won't be tied up.")

I kinda wish Painful DE had an extra scene or two establishing Buddy and Brad's relationship. Would've made Buddy's transition to ultra murder girl a bit less jarring.