Combat Medic, Self heals, Pistol boys

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Greetings,

I am planning for my second run on Demanding difficulty.
The biggest pain of my first run on Normal was Crew Combats,
so I suppose Combat Medic would be the Achilles' heel.

Question 1:
Is Combat Medic mandatory?
If so, how about his build?

My supposition about Q1:
Sadly yes.
CM 8, Saboteur rest, and spamming Deadsights (from my 1st captain, Spy/CM/Sabot),
or
CM max, and Xeno Hunter 1/Spy 1 (better heal but feels boring).


Related to Q1, I read some topics/guides that recommend Self heal.
Swordsman's one was good and XH's one seems good, but

Q2:
Shock Trooper's one doesn't seem good,
and Pistol boys have nothing: Am I right?

My supposition:
ST's one is cheap and better than nothing.


Related to Q2,

Q3:
Pistol boys seem inferior:
Lacking Self heal, poor penetration/parry: Am I right?

My supposition:
Instead, they have nice utility talents and the ability of dual wielding.
My 1st captain was Spy/CM/Sabot and had Evasion 10/ Blades 1:
He was not fragile and his heal / Deadsights were nice.
He was a bit costly and Spy was niche.
Bodyguard seems flexible but also costly.


I appreciate any advice or questions.

P.S.
Other combatants:
Swordsman/Wing Commando/Something
Shock Trooper/Soldier/Exo Scout
Bounty Hunter/Xeno Hunter/Soldier

[Scathe]

you want to have a high doctor skill on your medic to do good heals. I go all the way for doctor skill with combat medic 15 doctor 11 scientist 2 rest in combat medic. I know some other talented players like to replace scientist with military officer for a buff I think at rank 8 of military officer. your starting doctor officer can sometimes fill this role, but you want good strength and fortitude for 120hit points at least, and good quickness and wisdom for 12-26 initiative or so. traits can bridge some of these gaps.

[Weitsicht]

i tryed some games with combat medics and had nice results with doctor/combat med/bodyguard

combat medic alone turned out to not heal enough in late game
and bodyguard gives you a bit evasion and an offhand blade to add a bit parry without putting to much levels into it

had 2 of them + a shock tropper/xeno hunter/bounty hunter and soldier/bounty/exo scout

they made it all the way through the run without big problems on nightmare

just my 2 cents and i bet there are better setups, but was fun to play with lots of options :)

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Thank you!
Honestly my captain-medic was not enough to heal his combatants and I have reloaded 50% times vs ground Xeno
(and I will reload the game on the next run!)
High doctor skill or 2 medics, both are interesting.

Sorry for now I am very sleepy so I will check the details tomorrow.

[Socalista]

I play regularly on Brutal/Impossible without a combat medic. My most recent very successful playthrough involved an all officer/captain combat crew, focused on killing Xeno: shocktrooper/soldier/exo-scout (Captain), shocktrooper/soldier/exo-scout, bountyhunter/soldier/xenohunter, bountyhunter/soldier/xenohunter. Weapon loadout focused on hard-hitting offense - shotgun/shotgun/machinegun/machinegun.

Note - Swordsman (blades), Shocktrooper (command), Bounty Hunter (intimidate) and Xeno Hunter (intimidate) all have self heals and can remove debuffs / restore morale.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by "Just call me Takeshi":

Thank you!
Honestly my captain-medic was not enough to heal his combatants and I have reloaded 50% times vs ground Xeno
(and I will reload the game on the next run!)
High doctor skill or 2 medics, both are interesting.

Sorry for now I am very sleepy so I will check the details tomorrow.

Against xeno most of the time my issue was that even though there is my captains buff for everyone vs xeno. Instead everyone just uses the individual buff.
during initiative it randomly selects one of the available buffs and uses that one.
(Like i had 3 guys who had initiative activation buffs. My xeno hunter captains would have been the best vs xeno but more than half the time it did not even come up.D)
Elsewise i was able to do quite well without having even a single medic on the team.
Of course it helped i managed to obtain level 6+ rare and legendary (or however they are called) weapons and gear from derelicts.

edit: Socialista yeah my game was also either impossible or a level below.
And yes i also used the self heals, was enough. And you have quite a number of AOE damage against xenos, with having xeno hunter and xeno scout mixes. I usually took these two for back line, and either a third one for second pos and a blader for first.
Sadly my ship got blown up by a xeno ship:P Even though i did not have issues with ground combat:D

[happybjorn]

Q1: No, combat medic isn't mandatory, but is extremely useful. You can get by with self heals or a Doctor officer, but that is both less efficient and less reliable. The only thing combat medic lack is defenses, but is otherwise a solid combat job (even their attack talents are decent)

The build can work fine, it depends on how you use and how good your attributes are. High Fortitude is a must, because defense isn't great and you'll get hit (unless you are using Shrouded Fire from Rank 4, but then you aren't using any Saboteur attack talents).

Q2: I'm assuming the first part is meant to refer to the Shock Trooper's Rapid Bandage. It's an excellent self-heal. The amount healed won't be great unless you have some extra command, but it only costs 6 init and has a solid defensive buff attached.

It's worth noting that trait mutation for Inspiring has many possible triggers, including level up. Anyone can have it you feel like wasting 5-10 minutes save scumming.

Correct, pistols have no self heal (CM can heal anyone though, including self). Lots of pistol jobs have good defensive buffs.

Q3: No, pistol aren't inferior. They attack fast, but don't hit as hard. This is great for a MO/Pistol/Saboteur, who can take away initiative from multiple enemies (and stun, and remove buffs, and move them around). Once you get later in the game and get Orbital or quest reward pistols they can hit pretty hard (Ricochet Rain becomes kinda funny).

Pistol defensive talents tend to increase both melee and ranged defense. Yes, this isn't nearly as good as Blades skill (strong dice), but they stack and can usually take a character from always getting hit to getting hit half of the time.

That crew combat team looks fine in terms of jobs. You are spoiled for good choices for Blades jobs.

[Pat Fenis]

Combat medic gets the highest doctor skill. Heals / cleanse are mandatory for the hardest xeno fights. Take it to max job rank. I like to get Moff 5 on the same character for the tactical edge buff and damning aim to fill in when a heal isn't needed. You get a fair pistol skill from combat medic as well, it's good for cleaning up the mooks on a boarding action or whatever.

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Many thanks, senior captains!

So CM is very efficient and his popular build is:
High doctor skill, low evasion but covered by fortitude and heavy armor, and low level multi-class like MO to get versatility.
(Scathe's recommendation is to get more doc skill than versatility.)

I have underestimated Rapid Bandage, compared to his Stand Strong or other classes' self heals,
but it has a decent buff, which is stackable with Stand Strong, or versatility to choose a better one.
Definitely I will try it.

Pistol boys' defense buff + preferably dual-wielding seems good.
Maybe Weitsicht's second CM throw grenade? Cool!
happybjorn's debuff spammer would be great, as I loved Deadsights.
Maybe I need to fire my Swordsman or Shock Trooper...

Socalista's "Offense is the best defense" doctrine seems cool, but it would be beyond my ability.
On sprint unlock runs or a second team, I will try it.

And yes, I forgot about On Init buff!
On my first run, I tried to pick a better one and found myself to have picked nothing!
Definitely Irid-Laced Resolve, Predictive Intel if I fly a shuttle, Shock and Awe and/or Preemptive Assault depending on my team.

[matt]

Rapid bandage is a great buff. Sometimes I give my shock trooper a couple levels of commander. Shock troopers are good enough they don't need a third rifle job, which are rear-oriented, anyway. Commanders have a great level 1 buff and can displace snipers at level 5.

A starting doctor with good stats can be a reasonably powerful fighter with Heirlock's Otrike, though you'll give up some healing potential and lose a lot of initiative with each shot. I've seen my doctor / combat medic / military officer one-shot weaker xeno with a crit.

A doctor / combat medic / bodyguard could be pretty useful, too, especially with the new level 15 bodyguard talent, which can be activated from position 3. I haven't tried that yet, but it seems like it would be fun (though expensive in terms of initiative cost, once again).

I keep trying to find other interesting builds using bodyguards, but it's awkward to split your skills between blades and pistols. I once did a spy / assassin / bodyguard, but he died a rather ignoble death. I still think it could work, perhaps as a captain.

I agree that Socialista's all-rifle away team sounds challenging but fun. Three riflemen is certainly doable, but I often need a medic to help my dudes stay alive because I'm too lazy to grind for superhuman recruits.

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Thank you!
I didn't know the Bodyguard 15 talents: it is not on the wiki or eharper256's guide.
It is written here:
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/335620/view/4170973472363807713
I also forgot about Commander.
They seem a bit expensive but interesting.

I have NEVER played with Bodyguard yet, but in my plan: (You also may have considered, though).
Bodyguard/Pistoleer/Saboteur at 2nd rank,
with some parry and defensive buff, spamming debuff attacks, and buff friends.
Bodyguard as a melee combatant doesn't seem good, and as both melee and ranged would be expensive.


P.S.
I can't blame veterans, admins, or dev.
They are dedicated for the long term.
Recently I made some contributions but don't have permission to the locked pages of the wiki, sorry.

[Socalista]

Bodyguard works best as a pistoleer type, the blade is mostly for parrying and melee defense - they'll be a lot more survivable than a pure pistoleer in melee. Bodyguard/Pistoleer/x (3rd pistol class) is pretty much mandatory to make the build work well - can be saboteur, combat medic, military officer, (probably not spy)= b/c they want to be at range 3). The captain as Bodyguard is really helpful because you can load up on Evasion/Pistols to make sure you don't fall behind the curve in skills.

[di eshor ribly]

The combat crew I've come to rely on the most in my several hundred hours of play is a fairly balanced loadout.

Slot 4: Soldier/Xeno Hunter/Exo Scout - High damage dealer <heavy machine gun> (1-2 damage buff attacks, followed by plasma burn) with a self heal from XH. He has my only on-init talent with Irid Laced Resolve.
Slot 3: Doctor/Combat Medic/ Pistoleer(or Bodyguard) - support class, buffing armor and healing, purging debuffs, and taking the occasional potshot. Pistoleer/Bodyguard depends on if I want the added parry defense.
Slot 2: Soldier/Shock Trooper/Bounty Hunter (usually my captain) - a ranged shotgun tank with massive armor buffs, a self heal, and can plant his feet and stop forced slot changes. My captain builds usually end up hitting the armor cap, which hilariously can lead to taking 0-5 damage per enemy hit.
Slot 1: Swordsman/Zealot/Blade Dancer - melee tank with some self healing, self buffing, debuffing, and the ability to hit all four enemies and inflict bleed. As an added bonus they can get extra profit from dropping off passengers. As an extra added bonus they get some crew-wide morale boosts.

Now, that being said I've used a frontline Bodyguard in several runs, and I like to build them as Bodyguard/Pistoleer/Swordsman. Max out your evasion, pistols, and blades potential with plenty of self healing, parrying, buffing, debuffing, able to hit any enemy slot, and since they're your S1 fighter they can use their auto protect talent to keep your squishier backliners safe. Like the Blade Dancer they also get a passenger/prisoner drop-off profit talent. Also like the Shock Trooper above, once they get their buffs rolling they can be a god on the battlefield.

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

Thank you both!

Assuming job rank 30,
Socalista's 3rd rank Bodyguard would be;
Bodyguard8/Pitoleer11/Saboteur11
Pistol=4+11+6=21
Evasion=3+6+6=15
Blades=4
Talents: Deadsights, Skullshot, Ricochet Rain,
Demolition Joy, Wrecking Ball, Raiders Away
Personal note: Standard Saboteur with Inspiring Rally, Dueler's Stance, and some parry.
Can be much tougher against Xeno.

di eshor ribly's 1st rank Bodyguard would be;
Bodyguard8/Pitoleer17/Swordsman5
Pistol=4+15=19
Evasion=3+9+4=16
Blades=4+6=10
Talents: Strength of Steel, Honor Guards,
Body Shot, Screening Fire, Terrifying Accuracy, Close-Range Barrage
Personal note: Tankier because of Strength of Steel, better parry, and can defend friends with Honor Guards.
Debuffing would be inferior but has knock-back, pin, and accuracy debuff.

P.S.
My 2nd rank Bodyguard is:
Same rank/skills as Socalista's one.
Has access to both Saboterur and Bodyguard attacks.
Hoping another front line man to use Stand Strong (Shock Trooper) or Knife Work (Wing Commando).

[Yodarkore]

did anyone tried replacing pistoleer job with a saboteur job on a CM? I'm considering trying it so to see if the lvl 1 saboteur gun skill "skullshot" (-2 Ini; -25% all dmg 3t; remove all buff on target, use from slot 2-3 to fire on enemy present in slots 1-2) is a good replacer for the few pistoleer's skill a CM will ever have time to use during crew combat. As obviously it seems CM 8 with flatline/lifene combo is the basic must for a multiclass CM, getting CM job to lvl 11 and 15 is pretty pointless imho considering him as an team healbot rather than a dedicated self healing damage dealer, and for single target heal i go for doc 1 "field surgery" group heal CM1 "e suture" until CM8 netrain upgrading to both "ine" heals skills, and using an early rushed multiclass lvl15 doctor king team heal/purge "medical reset" (with either QM stater officer or any "crap" starter officers using a "basic crew job" as first job like pilot, nav, engie and such, IF decent stats to be one of the 4 elite crew combat teamates to avoid him being booted at 1st landing looking for facton rep in case no combat crew have any decent stats to go frontline)

edit: of course a CM lacks doctor dice on its own, i cant see him being useuful on hard+ difficuly without doctor job (or more risky explorer :p )

[Takeshi, made in Mom]

You mean from CM/Doctor/Pistoleer to CM/Doctor/Saboteur?
You would be more experienced than me,
but IMO if you have a good pistol skill, Saboteur's debuffing attacks would be better than Pistoleer's.

Pistoleer's talents which Saboteur doesn't have: Fading Shot to retreat from 2nd/1st position,
or Dueler's Stance to self-defensive buff.
Saboteur has Skullshot as you mentioned and Deadsights (50% stun and -2 init, only 9 init cost if you use a 6 cost pistol).
Duck and Go is a nice defense buff and retreat talent, but has difficulty being used at 3rd position.
Pistoleer has better pistol skill 1 more point @ rank 2 and 2 more @ rank 5: Instead Saboteur gets stealth skill...

If you have a low pistol skill, then MO to get Tactical Edge would be better.