Why lose faction when defeating pirates?

[Chopping Block]

I understand if there was an actual pirate faction, but why would you lose faction for defeating pirates that come from a legitimate lawful faction? I mean, they're pirates.

[Trese Brothers]

Faction pirates could be considered privateers if you were to try to draw a line to something in our history. While their work may not be entirely legal, fighting them or destroying their ships makes their faction unhappy. A faction's Reputation with you is not linked at all to legality -- it is about how you help or hamper their interests.

If you want to chase pirates and make someone happy, Patrol any world to please the local faction. Fighting pirates ftw.

[Shad1902]

they may be pirates, but they belong to a faction...and maybe someone from this faction hired the pirate ;)

(=privateer)

[Chopping Block]

It's more than just making someone "unhappy" in that faction, though, isn't it? If I'm a merchant and get accosted by pirates, and happen to kill a lot of "pirates" from a certain faction, I'm going to end up a wanted criminal in that faction. For defending myself. It just seems off, sorry to disagree. Great game and all, and this doesn't stop me playing it, but I just think the pirate rep system could use some nuance.

[Trese Brothers]

Yes, when I said unhappy I meant "Unhappy to the point of branding you an enemy of the faction who should be persecuted".

It is the nasty state of affairs in Star Traders politics and retribution justice. It's neo-feudal, its catty, its petty -- it is their way. They have built a society around avoiding excessive violence or any form of large scale warfare, and so the little things are watched, monitored and judged harshly.

As to pirate Rep rules -- don't blow up their ship. Only steal their cargo and steal their fuel. For pirates, these are actions that don't cost you Rep.

Also, if you fight and defeat a pirate who is foreign to the quadrant you are in, you stand to gain Rep, "For defeating a foreign Pirate who was raiding local shipping lanes"

But the faction that supports that Pirate is not going to be happy unless you roll over and surrender your cargo. That may not be fair, legal or nice but pirates are not any those things :D

[whit]

Just bought the game recently, nearing the end of the blood feud (started some of the arbiter stuff to get rid of the ticker), and I'm at severe negative relations with everyone except the starting faction. Which makes the game pretty tiresome, since you're getting a random encounter pretty much every time you leave a system or leave a warp jump. And so you're just supposed to bend over backwards for everyone, then stop and improve morale, so that you still have access to everything? Let's consider some of the main story missions might be like 5 jumps with say 2 system landings, and then back. So 14 random encounters at the very least if you don't play the card game at all.

And on all of those, if you don't have ranks with every faction, you're saying the game is meant to be played to bend completely over backwards for being accosted constantly? Bribing for 500 which still might be a rep loss (-1 still adds up when you're on a ticking timer), or losing like 25 morale over a handful of crew. Then continue on your way. Or somehow try and buy ranks with every single faction (even though you won't have the contacts to do so) while also trying to do the story line?

But if you defend yourself you piss off everyone else, and have to board and take their fuel and use talents to heal etc etc. I don't know, I like what I've played of the game so far. But I'm at the point that I want to start over, because I feel extremely gimped. And it's become slightly tedious to keep playing. For a time, I was able to keep some relations up by going to planet and patrolling and gaining back rep that way, but after awhile, I just couldn't keep up with all of the factions and the time constraint and it snowballed.

So, then I guess ignore the story line (which seems really long and well done/branching). And just deal with your contacts and trading? That way you could work on building ranks and getting edicts I suppose. But that's sandbox play I'd rather do after the first play through.

Just seems odd, if you're going to start new players off working for a faction. Since the tutorial is well, just plain nonexistent (yeah yeah the officers tell you about the tool bars and morale). Then expect them to know all of these hidden rules about the game universe. Anyway, start them off with a faction, then have a timer on the missions that adds some (not a lot) urgency to get them done and make them seem important, but not explain. That you're really a neutral faction that needs to bend over to everything or end up getting locked out of 90% of the game universe. Like just, why...does your crew lose morale when you accept a military vessel searching you? Do you get depressed going through a metal detector? Yeah, going through the airport sucks. But I don't have to go get high or drunk afterwards. It's like getting pulled over for having out of state tags during spring break/major holiday, the ♥♥♥♥ doesn't ruin your whole weekend. Sure surrendering to pirates or something fine..

That's my initial impressions/thoughts and why I didn't buy a copy for a friend yet. I'm going to give the game another run-through (11 hours) and after that I'll leave a review. But so far it's starting to seem like a game that presents you with a ton of options, but really only wants you to play it a certain way.

Current play through
Ship - Vengence (started with guardian) - Do a lot more boarding then anything else as it's way more profitable and my only way to get fuel in most areas.
main character 18 or 19 (MO/XH)
some fully upgraded weapons and other components/engine
blood feud almost over
1 person brought over to the arbiters side.
Few special gear items found

[ambi]

fighting or dodging other factions will bring your relations down. if you're intercepted, it might be worth surrendering and getting searched. once your relations are slightly positive, you'll usually be left alone by that faction.

[TheDiaz]

You need to live wiht the fact that piloting a ship is not a cheap task, specially considering the chance of having to pay for bribes or other stuff.

When they are boarding you the other ship's crew is basically checking every room of the ship, even the barracks where your crew sleeps. Theya re meant to be a bunch of free people that work by themselves, this shouldn't be allowed by the captain. Would you like that a police officer randomly appeared, said they had to check your room and made a mess and then just leaved, and probably took some stuff with them? That is the logic placed here.

Reputation management is important. Simple difficulty is meant to learn the game mechanics and see what does what. Is not even meant to be the real deal to play the game. You are given enough time to do other stuff between story missions, probably for other factions to improve your relations with them, like patrolling, selling intel, or even missions if you have a contact. One tip is to have a great reputation with 1-2 factions, and 1 or 2 don't care about. And there are ways to reduce the reputation loss, making it way more maneagable.

And btw, youa re not meant to ignore the story if you don't want. You are given enough time to do other stuff in the mean time, and this can net you reputation, experience, and money.

[MasterShake]

I guess, fighting back every random encounter is a famous rookie mistake. I also made that in my first run. Since it was normal difficulty, I lived through. But on higher difficulty such behaviour would likely be a death sentence, I actually experienced that as well (by encountering a hostile BH which I couldn't beat in fair combat = permadeath, even if you surrender).
And once you start gaining negative rep the process will only accelerate, mind it.

Luckily there are many ways to avoid this dead locks.
1. You can simply bribe them - that depends on cargo you have and money you own. If you don't have goods/mission items on board, maybe it's easier to surrender, the morale lose is really cheap, and certanly cheaper than afterbattle repairs or even death. Ofc that is true for early game. Late or even middle game have different logic, because if you did it right, noone can scratch you.
2. Get "Jettison Cargo" merchant talent, optional always bring some cheap and useless junk for it.
3.You can buy faction trade permits (and as a merchant you have to do it anyway), and you will get an option to avoid confrontation with pirates of that faction.
4. You can get diplomate talent, which allows to compensate your rep lose even if you blast/board pirate ship (that's more mid/end game option if I remember correct, but by the flag, I so like to have it on my destroyer, so can dust anyone I want w/o rep loss at all).

5. You cal also dive into politics and gain you reps in a different way. Patrol, spy (selling intel gives good starting rep boost, gain those Unauthorized Access and Secrets Unbound talents for your spies!), do missions, buy pardons from contacts. "The world is yours" of Archenemy - this song kinda became a hymn for my main captain in this game's world.

[whit]

You lose rep for looting pirates btw...right in the after action report even warns you of this before you loot them.

Additionally, you can't buy permits/ranks etc if you don't have the contacts for the factions. Already said that. Already covered, the entire ordeal with bribing in my original post...
You still encounter friendly factions plenty often. Had around 300 with a faction in my first play through, you still encounter them, just normally you have the option to acknowledge and they leave. Happens every time you enter the system to turn a quest for that faction. But at least with those, you can have permits, ranks etc etc. - again, all hidden rules and mechanics. Would take forever to buy them all and still stay on track with the story.

It's not about it being cheap to let them board and search, and them "checking every room"..it's the fact you just left a port heading somewhere else...now you have a morale loss...and need to go get someone high. Not sure how any of you find the constant random encounters like this fun at all...

No one was complaining about how much it costs or how "expensive" running a star ship is...you make FAAAR more money from boarding, looting, salvaging than you ever could at just bending over giving them bribes and paying for morale losses or trading (without several permits across factions).

Patrol, spy...selling intel...gives you limited rep. max 30/40 if you can even find the contact. If the rng even gives you the opportunity to find it. Look guys I'm not saying it's a bad game, it's just flawed. It's great you all like it, but none of the things you've said mitigate any of the annoyances without some serious grinding.

And obviously Issac you've never served in the military. Look up field day inspections. It's no different than going through border patrol. Gonna stop them from searching your car? Going to throw a ♥♥♥♥ fit over it? It's not free space you're flying in, you don't own the system. Might be your ship, but you're on their territory. Again I get it for the pirates, but not for military patrols. Yeah yeah, buy the permits and ranks.......contacts.

Not going to sit here and argue with ya'll though. Thanks for trying to provide tips, but they only reinforce the fact that there are annoying mechanics in the game.

Edit - wrong about the pirate thing with looting, read it wrong.

[Shad1902]

Guess it's not the right game for you then.
Have a look at Rebel galaxy, where pirates have a own faction then.

[Trese Brothers]

Also, perhaps check out the lorebookcfor more information on the nasty state of politics in the void and the unique place your captain fits within it all --
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxev05ooli1rp37/Star%20Traders%20Frontiers%20Lore%20Book%20-%20Volume%201.pdf?dl=0

Suggest,
1. Encounter Talents are the best to avoid fighting
2. Bribe is cheap
3. Surrender is generally no cost

[MasterShake]

Originally posted by whit:

Additionally, you can't buy permits/ranks etc if you don't have the contacts for the factions.

Now that's the real problem, because having contacts is a MUST for any freelancer which role you take in game as a Star Trader.
If you don't have contacts for permits/ranks, you will crawl at the bottom forever because w/o permits you won't make money on trade (no access to real goods) and w/o ranks/edicts you won't make money on missions (direct link with payments).

Originally posted by whit:

Patrol, spy...selling intel...gives you limited rep. max 30/40 if you can even find the contact.

Again, if you made a spy template, first think is to get right contacts.
And 30/40 rep is more than enough to relax in faction space, especially as merchant captain, who gets bonus from starting trait.

Originally posted by whit:

none of the things you've said mitigate any of the annoyances without some serious grinding.

Look up field day inspections. It's no different than going through border patrol. Gonna stop them from searching your car? Going to throw a ♥♥♥♥ fit over it? It's not free space you're flying in, you don't own the system. Might be your ship, but you're on their territory. Again I get it for the pirates, but not for military patrols.

Well, as I get the lore, you a basically flying a space which is curious combination of wild west and medieval frontiers. If you ever were interested in history, you would assume that such circumstances are by nature full of annoyance and grinding. For example real life pirates/raiders/highwaymen often shot first and put to blade everyone. And military were not at all "Sir, would you mind to pass an inspection... We are sorry for inconvenience, have a good day". And resisting or even trying to flee lawbringers could be a death sentense with a bullet or on the nearest oak.
So I say, it's not that bad, as it could be. You just don't piss off people with guns or power, and they leave you be. Wasn't like that in real human history, unfortunately.

[TheDiaz]

If you find it annoying and want to rant about it and just say whatever you want without wanting to discuss the elements of said mechanic, then this is not the game for you. Sorry you need to get too defensive because someone answered you with the idea you didn't like and you don't get the mechanics of the game, or no one agreed with you because no one finds you are right.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the game has been built to this point thanks to player feedback and if you learn the game then you wil understand that those annoyances are not as big as you are making it to be.

[Gilmoy]

Oh, we don't grind to mitigate our surrenders. We grind to farm xeno crews and ships.

Have you made it to year 5.5 and gotten jumped in space by your 1st Terrox Xeno Cruiser yet? That will make all of your past complaints seem trite in comparison.

How do you farm xeno crews? Here's a typical plan. Note the scope; but that's why we plan.

~~~~~~~~

0. Captain template time: Choose melee captain stats, for captain + 3 officer fighting crew.
Start with armor/weapon Contacts, and FDF Commander Contact for Military Officer if you've unlocked it.

1. Year 1-2: trade, surrender, do Faen-Char diplomatic missions for cash.
Patrol/sell intel to boost rep.
Buy your starting faction's permits, military rank 2 and 5 for +1/+2 levels, some edicts.
Begin hiring combat officers-elect. Hold hire-dismiss mini-tourneys to farm good combat stats.
Upgrade officers-elect crew to contact armor/weapons.

2. Year 3-5: 2nd ship, promote the 3rd officer. Now you can crew-fight. Could start farming xeno crews: explore and play Blooded Lure as fast as it cools down.
Your 2nd ship may not be ready to ship-fight, so you still surrender to everybody.
If you have FDF Commander, hire about 5 Military Officers at low level, L5-L7 or so.
A decade from now, they'll reach L20 and you'll have more of them.

2.5 Year 5.5-6.0: 1st terrox xeno ship jumps you in space.
Escape (requires some upgrades + luck), or accelerate Skip Off the Void, or game over.

~~~~ in the timelines in which you survived the 1st xeno ship ~~~~

3. Year 6-10: Your 2nd ship might be able to ship-fight vs. human ships.
Finish off the 10-year xeno/artifacts achievements if that's a checklist item.

3rd ship if you want 7000+ mass. Schedule its upgrades (which takes ~2 years).
Then you can ship-fight, and you never surrender again. You could acknowledge for +f.rep, or demand tribute (not both in the same encounter), or kill every indie and pirate, or kill every friendly ship and use Magnanimous Victory to negate most of the rep loss.

Could start farming xeno ships: patrol and play Here Be Monsters as fast as it cools down. This gives about +30 f.rep with the local faction + $30k salvage per win. Board to win, with 50+ cargo capacity empty to loot 30-80 TXAs from its hold, plus the 12-20 TXAs you create with multiple Macabre Harvest. Litter the galaxy with your stashes of unsold TXAs. Smuggle them at a Contact with Black Market on a Luxury Pop world (best).

4. Year 20+: Do Era vignettes, and any other missions you want. You have dozens of Contacts, and edicts/permits/rank with every faction you want. You can trade, win any fight, and play all six card games. You fear nothing, xeno ships and legendary bounty hunters fear you. Human ships you don't even notice.

Time flies as your ship crawls. You may get 3-5 Era vignettes concurrently. Compose them into mission-tours and finish as many as you can with the fewest possible travel legs. All of the travel and mission steps adds up to years and decades. Your itinerary gets so urgent that you can't patrol or play Here Be Monsters twice, because you can't spare 1 week out of 104.

Your Contacts start dying en masse of old age, but younger Contacts always appear.

5. Year 60+: Jyeeta, and the new last-Era story content.

6. Year 75+: Whatever you like. But maybe there's nothing left to solve, and you start a new game with a completely different plan.

~~~~~~~~

That's one sketch of one possible way to play. It works; it reaches the endgame.
It's not the only way to play. Not every player needs to beat Jyeeta in ship combat.
But if you do plan to beat Jyeeta when you get to them, you must be unstoppable vs. Terrox already. So the midgame is quite fun, too.

At this scale, all of your complaints compress into 1 word of the Year 1-2 blurb.
In the big picture, it's a brief phase of the early game. Bigger concerns await.