Defense Matrix vs Sensor Arrays

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Anyone do the math at which is better to load up or if their is a breaking point where def mat are better then full sensor array?

[219A730]

I don't know either but before the changes to xeno ship builder, I could get away with all sensor arrays. Now I find myself running more defense matrices and command to keep up with the xeno's accuracy in the Wolf Vector. For human ships in the Scout Cutter, I need to run defense matrices too.

The combat log involving 160 command and 5 defense matrices vs heavy terrox cruiser at range 3 (via flash charge) concluded with results too close for my liking, despite my defense not being outmatched by enemy's accuracy.

I don't know if the changes to navigator and gunner skills apply to xeno too, but I need to run (slightly) more command and tactics in my dodge builds on impossible to keep up. It's nice knowing the enemy is less of a push over early on. But on the other hand, I need to min max more than before resulting in small ships with a lot of command and tactics crew to remain competitive. What I'm trying to say here I doing the same thing over and over again just to keep up. I guess the same would happen even more if the AI knew how to run more command crew.

I find myself not putting sensor arrays vs defense matrices until the ship's mass is too heavy due to the importance of not getting hit by the improved enemy's accuracy thanks to more proper AI ship building. Especially on small ships between M2400 and M3400. Maybe even M5000 seeing how it's not easy to put reinforced structures on most ships of that size. I know this sound weird, but that's how my games are playing out.

Small ships can get overwhelm by the accuracy of larger ships, specially those with sensor arrays and targeting matrices to counter engine evasion bonus. Imagine fighting a large ship with all targeting matrices. Although, I haven't seen a enemy human ship like that.

Part of the reason I need to run more defense matrices is because enemy ships could be running sensor arrays and/or targeting matrices.

My 7 sensor arrays and 7 small weapons Sword Battlecruiser still work but the xeno cruiser came closer to hitting than before at flash charge range 3. I haven't tried out torpedo range yet. I also stacked 196 command.

I'm not sure of the breaking point, but with the amount of command my scout cutter had I was just better off running defense matrix instead of sensor array for the purpose of evading ship fire.

Also keep in mind defense matrix tier 1 gives +3 electronics. Sensor array 4 is considerably more expensive after the price nerf. For early game, it's more affordable to go defense matrix 1 than sensor array 4.

[darion-neclador]

@Jimmy Depends a lot on your command rating honestly. PM's / Sensors are generally better sub 80 Command if you don't go up to (like 8+) silly amounts of Def Matrices.

[Marilyn Monorobot]

if i understand things correctly (and maybe I don't?), for sensor array 4 (6 electronics = 6 strong die (equivalent to 12 standard die)) vs. defense matrix 4 (4 electronics, 3 pilot = 4 strong die 3 standard die (equivalent to (2x4+3) or 11 standard die) the math is something like

if (your standard dice + 2x your strong dice)/20 > (12-11) then defense matrix is better assuming electronics>pilot

in other words, defense matrixes 4 increase your dodge by more if (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 20

so basically, defense matrixes 4 are basically always better purely for the purposes of dodging, even on very very small ships.

for defense 3 (3 electronics, 3 pilot) its (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 60

for defense 1 and 2 (3 electronics, 2 pilot) its (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 80

still not huge thresholds to hit, seeing as 20 pilot, 30 electronics, and 0 command is enough to reach the threshold for defense matrix 1.

afaik defense matrix buffs stack additively with buffs from talents so using defense matrixes has diminishing returns when using buffs like evasive maneuvers or w/e but the exact math for that is too complicated for me to worry about right now.

Defense matrixes increase jump cost and use more than twice as much mass so its a lot more trial and error than anything. also, sensor arrays give other useful bonuses, including nav, that defense matrixes don't give.

[darion-neclador]

Originally posted by Marilyn Monorobot:

afaik defense matrix buffs stack additively with buffs from talents so using defense matrixes has diminishing returns when using buffs like evasive maneuvers or w/e but the exact math for that is too complicated for me to worry about right now.

Indeed they also stack with the already existing engine comparison modifier, so hence my rule of thumb above. As your overall pool suffers if you shift to much away from the base pool to the multiplied pool. ;)

[happybjorn]

I'm pretty sure I'm defining "better" differently, but Defense Matrices are almost always better.

At level 20 a crew with 5 E-techs, 2 Spies, 3 Engineers, and a Mechanic will have around 90 electronics (in practice it will probably be a bit lower because some of those crew members will be later hires). That's close to a third of your crew in a 3400 or 5000 mass ship.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

DM's will probably perform better close range as well since its upping your pilot pool. And even though sensor arrays buff accuracy if you are say 15 pilot points all that buffing isn't much help.

More mass but same mass as Pilot Modules.

You could load up 10 dm's in a SC/WV. Thats 40 electronic dice and 30 pilot dice. With the other components most likely electronic would become strong defense dice plus you can get 29 strong from high agility engine. And that be a +50% defense. Yes crazy high jump costs.

Maybe better close attack with the pilot dice from dm's?
Maybe less overall crew dedicated to pilot and elec?

Usually just go all Pilot modules when on a close range run. Might not be 100% optimal but I don't have to put any thought in that style of play. Just do it and don't get hit and always score a hit.

Been fooling with close range electronic builds and some long range ones. Didn't like any of the ones I came up with. But never went all dm's.....

[darion-neclador]

The jump costs are really not sustainable for small ships. Also i thought we were discussing early-to-mid builds not lategame level 20's :D .

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Let's discuss <=5000m mid to late game. Non carrier lol

[219A730]

I had three defense matrices tier 1 on my Scout Cutter and the rest sensor arrays. Anymore defense matrices wouldn't fit with my build. The chaser engine only costing 1 fuel per AU helped a lot.

This Scout Cutter was with 7 military officers as crew and squeezing command in my crew combat officers when I can. I was uncomfortable with only 3 pilots but I got used to it. Now I've four pilots on my Wolf Vector. I normally go through evasion maneuvers with wild flying talents as backup. Also had two engine precision talents from the double mechanics.

I couldn't go too low in normal crew without travel events destroying my ship on impossible. At least the 4 e-techs had vigilant scanners. I could get by with one crew dog with one Ship Ops saving throw on the Scout Cutter for the most part, but I did occasionally fail the Ship Ops test.

I managed to get rid of the weapon locker later on for more sensor arrays with new contacts for buying weapons and armors in crew combat.

I was going for Paladin Cruiser. But I got tired of not being able to outfit it in time because of randomness so I went Scout Cutter instead.

With a defense matrix focused build, I depended on range change talents, at least for the early game, but nothing a couple perfected approach talents couldn't handle. Took a couple sharp steering later on just in case. Later on, I can overwhelm early game enemies and had range change sprinkled everywhere.

Hitting was also a problem so I used vigilant scanner, overriding discipline, and incite victory to hit. The problem was more noticeable with dual railguns, especially in the early game.

Due to my bad luck with obtaining credit, I didn't get the Wolf Vector until deeper in my playthrough. Went with Scout Cutter for a long time with chaser engine. Could of went Dart Jammer, but ended up holding out for the Wolf Vector.

My wallet wasn't full enough until military tribunal talent scored me a Lightbow Raptor to sell for $512k. Not bad for paying $175k in capture fees.

[darion-neclador]

I don't really play Elec focused builds anymore as a lack in pilot (especially on a non-combat ship) can really put you in a death trap against a twitch surging enemies.

[Marilyn Monorobot]

Originally posted by darion-neclador:

I don't really play Elec focused builds anymore as a lack in pilot (especially on a non-combat ship) can really put you in a death trap against a twitch surging enemies.

this is why I tend to use sensor arrays on long range combat builds. all that +accuracy and your backup weapons can still hit even with low pilot. still have to have backup weapons which is a drawback though.

[darion-neclador]

It's not about hitting, it's about being trapped at a range where you're unable to effectively trade dmg.

[Grimelord82]

Originally posted by Marilyn Monorobot:

if i understand things correctly (and maybe I don't?), for sensor array 4 (6 electronics = 6 strong die (equivalent to 12 standard die)) vs. defense matrix 4 (4 electronics, 3 pilot = 4 strong die 3 standard die (equivalent to (2x4+3) or 11 standard die) the math is something like

if (your standard dice + 2x your strong dice)/20 > (12-11) then defense matrix is better assuming electronics>pilot

in other words, defense matrixes 4 increase your dodge by more if (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 20

so basically, defense matrixes 4 are basically always better purely for the purposes of dodging, even on very very small ships.

for defense 3 (3 electronics, 3 pilot) its (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 60

for defense 1 and 2 (3 electronics, 2 pilot) its (2xElectronics + Pilot + Command) > 80

I believe I'm following this math. You shifted the 20 to the Y side of the X >Y equation. And you used 20 because the DM gives a +5% boost.

[kanick3000]

I played around a bit with DM focused builds and sensor array focused ones, and can confirm that DMs do indeed provide more raw defense, but have the drawbacks mentioned above. The math provided by @Marilyn Monorobot is pretty insightful.

I haven't yet had a chance to test out larger vessels ( >5000M ) with full armor and shields (60%) and talents to get that up to 75% and reduce crew and component damage. Not sure if the extra 15% makes that kind of thing viable still with the changes they made to how enemies outfit their ships, but I suppose it's worth a test or two.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Originally posted by darion-neclador:

It's not about hitting, it's about being trapped at a range where you're unable to effectively trade dmg.

Yeah sensor arrays are zero help in range changing at 3-1 ranges. Need pilot dice.

Are the dm's providing enough pilot dice to change ranges?

It still seems piloting rules close range. It's used for attack, defense, range change, and boarding as strong dice.

Electronics can only be used as strong in defense if greater then piloting.

Kind of feel wherever piloting is used the new electronics option should be added. Just to give more diverse builds.

Cause maybe there is a short range elec build with the right components that buff the right stuff to make you dominate but you can just stack pilot modules and avoid all that thinking and planning.