is vfr throwing or against tos?

[Truth Bringer]

So, i was in a game at one point and this guy was voting up people and if they don't give a role they die and they basically were going to go through the whole list of people. I heard its a common thing in ranked. If it is not what are your feelings about this tactic?

[Vepar]

It's not against the rules.

Personally, i don't mind it, sometimes it can be good, other times it's quite stupid to VFR, especially early as you can reveal some important roles.

[Taebrythn]

nope not throwing because its not against any rules. sometimes it can really throw chaos or if town doesn't talk

[Lucifer ★✬]

Vfr is fine and sometimes the best option, like if the town has no info to work with

[Baby_Cookie[WOLF]]

essentially not stated as " against the rules "

but you do have to keep in mind that this is a game based direclty on the decade old party game of "werewolf"

the very core of werewolf is that you can't ask is someone is a werewolf or not since it outright counters the point of deduction.
the same DOES apply here.

( granted i'll give some leniance to things like any/all where everyone can lie freely without confirmation options )

Originally posted by Lucifer ★✬:

Vfr is fine and sometimes the best option, like if the town has no info to work with

^ or this, if people refuse to play and just sit there, you aren't left with much option but to just random lynch anyone not answering a simple question.


but take a simple classic game as an example.
you rolecall someone, they answer

if they are evil they will lie and claim a role that someone else has
someone else knows they claimed a role that they are having
they say "NOPE"

if they are town, you basically just threw and made them a target.

you now lynch one of those 2
if right --> gg
if wrong --> jsut hang the other one next time, stil gg

your entire game becomes a coin flip, which no matter how you look at it counteracts it's gameplay purpose.
( and depending on how lucky you were in your coin flip, it usually works against "town" )

° heck they put some thought into this :
if a jailor dies to an sk, the only guarantee you have is that there is a 50% chance of a retarget on his last jailed ( the same with escort )
the game itself doesn't outright give you a 100% sk confirm by design !!

Within a "classic" game the roles are so defined it's far to restrictive to justify rolecalling
2 braincells is kinda neough to figure everything out based on a couple of lines ( what's the point then ? )

but that's just me, i guess :p

-----------------------------------------------
the other no-no is to not have comms outside of the game borders
( but that's beyond controll as well and you know it's happening :( )

[Vepar]

Originally posted by Baby_CookieWOLF:

essentially not stated as " against the rules "

but you do have to keep in mind that this is a game based direclty on the decade old party game of "werewolf"

the very core of werewolf is that you can't ask is someone is a werewolf or not since it outright counters the point of deduction.
the same DOES apply here.

( granted i'll give some leniance to things like any/all where everyone can lie freely without confirmation options )

Originally posted by Lucifer ★✬:

Vfr is fine and sometimes the best option, like if the town has no info to work with

^ or this, if people refuse to play and just sit there, you aren't left with much option but to just random lynch anyone not answering a simple question.


but take a simple classic game as an example.
you rolecall someone, they answer

if they are evil they will lie and claim a role that someone else has
someone else knows they claimed a role that they are having
they say "NOPE"

if they are town, you basically just threw and made them a target.

you now lynch one of those 2
if right --> gg
if wrong --> jsut hang the other one next time, stil gg

your entire game becomes a coin flip, which no matter how you look at it counteracts it's gameplay purpose.
( and depending on how lucky you were in your coin flip, it usually works against "town" )

° heck they put some thought into this :
if a jailor dies to an sk, the only guarantee you have is that there is a 50% chance of a retarget on his last jailed ( the same with escort )
the game itself doesn't outright give you a 100% sk confirm by design !!

Within a "classic" game the roles are so defined it's far to restrictive to justify rolecalling
2 braincells is kinda neough to figure everything out based on a couple of lines ( what's the point then ? )

but that's just me, i guess :p

-----------------------------------------------
the other no-no is to not have comms outside of the game borders
( but that's beyond controll as well and you know it's happening :( )

I agree with most of your points here, and you neatly explained the ins and outs of VFR and what it does.

However (i bolded the part i'm referring to), i don't think anywhere in ToS rules is stated that you can't ask anyone if they're a certain role (like a Werewolf for example). Yes, it counters the point of deduction, but in ToS, bluffing and lying is a thing so asking someone their role isn't against the rules as it can lead to other variations of the gameplay (which you so neatly described in your post).

I know ToS is based on Werewolf, but is that really a rule in Werewolf? That you can't ask someone their role? Seems a bit pointless, especially in such games where, there's nothing really stopping you from asking. So why make it a rule? There's also nothing stopping someone from telling you their role, or lying about it, and the game is set up so that even if someone tells you the truth, you have no way of knowing so you still need to deduce it.

Never played Werewolf so i'm genuinely asking if that's a rule there.

[Baby_Cookie[WOLF]]

Originally posted by Vepar:

I agree with most of your points here, and you neatly explained the ins and outs of VFR and what it does.

However (i bolded the part i'm referring to), i don't think anywhere in ToS rules is stated that you can't ask anyone if they're a certain role (like a Werewolf for example). Yes, it counters the point of deduction, but in ToS, bluffing and lying is a thing so asking someone their role isn't against the rules as it can lead to other variations of the gameplay (which you so neatly described in your post).

I know ToS is based on Werewolf, but is that really a rule in Werewolf? That you can't ask someone their role? Seems a bit pointless, especially in such games where, there's nothing really stopping you from asking. So why make it a rule? There's also nothing stopping someone from telling you their role, or lying about it, and the game is set up so that even if someone tells you the truth, you have no way of knowing so you still need to deduce it.

Never played Werewolf so i'm genuinely asking if that's a rule there.

outright written i don't think it says anything ( then again were do we even find the original rules for werewolf nowadays :p )
allthough it is commonly accpeted to ( in the party game at least ) just not do it.

-----------------------------------------------------------
More text not directly an answer that might be ignored below :p
------------------------------------------------------------

° that being said the party game usually takes place in a confined setting with people you know and trust.

( so it's a lot easier to just accept it as an implied rule there )

An online medium is something vastly different as well as how one would approach that °

Within ToS, a lot resides within what can at best be called a "grey area".

A lot has to be determined of the situation at hand on the moment of it happening to be fair.
Aside form that, some roles are set up to pretty much ask for a rolecall, no way around it.

" a jailor who jails someone and then not aks for it, would be pointless :p... it is however set up in such a way that only the jailor is going to get this info and has to take the risk on wether or not he compromises himself to share with the group later on. Which is a solid justification °

So saying if something is or isn't purely on an overarching idea of the game is hard in itself
( like i said, in an any/all the whole gameplay is vastly different and much more leniance is acceptable to discuss it in public chat itself )

For me " I don't like the idea of trivialising it " in a default classic game ( but that's an opinionated opninion there )

A lot has to ride on the common sense of anyone playing on wether or not they think it's something to do, i guess :p

That being said, wether someone agrees with it or not, it's going to happen and there is nothing anyone can do.

You might as well accept it is going to happen ( doesn't mean you have to like it though :p )

[Vepar]

Originally posted by Baby_CookieWOLF:

Originally posted by Vepar:

I agree with most of your points here, and you neatly explained the ins and outs of VFR and what it does.

However (i bolded the part i'm referring to), i don't think anywhere in ToS rules is stated that you can't ask anyone if they're a certain role (like a Werewolf for example). Yes, it counters the point of deduction, but in ToS, bluffing and lying is a thing so asking someone their role isn't against the rules as it can lead to other variations of the gameplay (which you so neatly described in your post).

I know ToS is based on Werewolf, but is that really a rule in Werewolf? That you can't ask someone their role? Seems a bit pointless, especially in such games where, there's nothing really stopping you from asking. So why make it a rule? There's also nothing stopping someone from telling you their role, or lying about it, and the game is set up so that even if someone tells you the truth, you have no way of knowing so you still need to deduce it.

Never played Werewolf so i'm genuinely asking if that's a rule there.

outright written i don't think it says anything ( then again were do we even find the original rules for werewolf nowadays :p )
allthough it is commonly accpeted to ( in the party game at least ) just not do it.

-----------------------------------------------------------
More text not directly an answer that might be ignored below :p
------------------------------------------------------------

° that being said the party game usually takes place in a confined setting with people you know and trust.

( so it's a lot easier to just accept it as an implied rule there )

An online medium is something vastly different as well as how one would approach that °

Within ToS, a lot resides within what can at best be called a "grey area".

A lot has to be determined of the situation at hand on the moment of it happening to be fair.
Aside form that, some roles are set up to pretty much ask for a rolecall, no way around it.

" a jailor who jails someone and then not aks for it, would be pointless :p... it is however set up in such a way that only the jailor is going to get this info and has to take the risk on wether or not he compromises himself to share with the group later on. Which is a solid justification °

So saying if something is or isn't purely on an overarching idea of the game is hard in itself
( like i said, in an any/all the whole gameplay is vastly different and much more leniance is acceptable to discuss it in public chat itself )

For me " I don't like the idea of trivialising it " in a default classic game ( but that's an opinionated opninion there )

A lot has to ride on the common sense of anyone playing on wether or not they think it's something to do, i guess :p

That being said, wether someone agrees with it or not, it's going to happen and there is nothing anyone can do.

You might as well accept it is going to happen ( doesn't mean you have to like it though :p )

I see! Thank you for your answer!

[Charlie/Widget]

Vote for role is certainly an effective way to find and catch evils off guard. A lot of the time inexperienced evils do not have a claim ready, and if they are near the top or bottom of the list they are caught and that's 1 evil down for town. It can also catch out "fake Tis" who haven't posted yet. VFR is risky for vigilantes though, since in the current ranked and ranked practice game mode we have a confirmed witch. They might be forced to fake claim. However, pros tend to outweigh cons in Ranked/Ranked Practice. :)

[Steven13527]

Originally posted by Cavespider_17:

Vote for role is certainly an effective way to find and catch evils off guard. A lot of the time inexperienced evils do not have a claim ready, and if they are near the top or bottom of the list they are caught and that's 1 evil down for town. It can also catch out "fake Tis" who haven't posted yet. VFR is risky for vigilantes though, since in the current ranked and ranked practice game mode we have a confirmed witch. They might be forced to fake claim. However, pros tend to outweigh cons in Ranked/Ranked Practice. :)

(This is in ranked/practice not classic)
This is of course assuming mafia isn't the one leading this push, whatever is said during the day can and inevitably will be used against and for town, evils almost 100% know if someone is lying or not since only 2 people (assuming ALL town tell the truth) and even then it can easily become a chaotic tool, evils will push on weak town and inevitably get them killed.


If evils took more risks we may see the winrate change drastically one time in an all any I claimed vh and there just so happened to be a real vh (with real vampires of course) I was a little worried but I figured out it was likely a solo vamp (not for sure, but I had to take a chance or else I was gonna get caught anyway) so I had to say is vh only one who should know that vamps were alive or not (of course vamps would know but my point was that if I am not vampire I can't know if vamps were still alive or not.)(I was an arso) so once I got "confirmed" I could easily weaponize vfr against all town or other evils that I wanted since town just believed me entirely even the vh.

[Scyobi_Empire]

Vfr? What does that mean?

[Lucifer ★✬]

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

Vfr? What does that mean?

If you read any of the posts you'd know

Its Vote For Random or Vote for Role. It's just randomly voting up someone to make them do a role call and to see if its sus or not