HOW TO BUFF DISGUISER

[Patrykowsky]

we all know disguiser is useless so i have an idea. let disquiser read other townie wills, he can either choose to disguise or to read the will it would be a fair immo.

[Jirodyne]

It won't be fair, as it would pretty much be a weaker Consig, since most everyone puts their name and roles in their wills to show they were disguised by someone.

Whats more, there would be no way to use that info during the day since only you would be able to see the wills. Whats more, it would also be too powerful if you use it on the Jailor or Invest if there is no Consig, as you would know people's roles and order to kill them to win easily.

Disguiser doesn't need a buff, as they are good on their own if played right. But also, if there is a Framer or even better a Janitor with them, they are unfindable and become the most powerful Maf in the game.

[Depsurrel]

Originally posted by RainbowC22:

It won't be fair, as it would pretty much be a weaker Consig, since most everyone puts their name and roles in their wills to show they were disguised by someone.

Whats more, there would be no way to use that info during the day since only you would be able to see the wills. Whats more, it would also be too powerful if you use it on the Jailor or Invest if there is no Consig, as you would know people's roles and order to kill them to win easily.

Disguiser doesn't need a buff, as they are good on their own if played right. But also, if there is a Framer or even better a Janitor with them, they are unfindable and become the most powerful Maf in the game.

Disguiser is ONLY good paired with a forger or janitor, otherwise, EVERYONE leaves their name in the will, and even then there are things that can get you killed:

if they were jailed n1 and will states they were jailed n1, smart jailor will kill you
spy sees maf visited someone whose alive
lookout
medium
ret

[Vandalay]

Originally posted by abizoey:

I'd say disguiser can only be used as intended with a janitor, not even with a forger. The whole point of it is that the disguiser can become someone who is a proven townie, and if that townie is a unique role or there's no more claimspace, even with a forger the disguiser could be outed since when the disguiser 'dies' to mafia, it shows the townie's role.

E.g. Bob is disguiser, Mary is the confirmed jailor. Mafia kill and forge Mary, and Bob disguises as her. So it comes up next day saying:

'Bob was killed by a member of the mafia. We could not find a last will. Bob's role was jailor.'

It's now pretty obvious that Mary has been disguised. If there was a janitor involved, Bob could have easily pretended to be Mary the confirmed jailor, and therefore never be suspected or voted up by the townies.

tl;dr disguiser needs to be removed or only appear in games with janitors. Buffs won't help enough.

Even with janitor, it's a role with waaay too many hard counters.

Spy, see's 2 mafia visit Mary, mary is alive bob is dead... yup bob is evil

Retri brings someone back "Hey I talked to bob while I was down there, he says he's actually marry!

Medium - see retri


Is the NK or witch still around, well the mafia isn't the only one with an interest in an unprotected confirmed town.


Honestly no matter how you slice it, the laundry list of things that make disguising silly, is off the charts. I cannot fathom a mechanic that keeps disguiser in the game, without nerfing half of the town roles first, to which disguising is a good idea.

[Jirodyne]

The only way I can see it being a 'buff' to mess with wills, is if you You disguise as someone the first time, YOUR will is placed there instead of theirs. Then while you are disguised as that person, lets call them Person A, you have Person A's will, and can alter it as you win. Then you disguise as 'Person B', Person A 'dies' along with the Will you kept/changed, and you now have Person B's will, because you are now Person B.

^ that is the only 'fair' way I can see to 'buff' a Disguiser. Cause Retri are very rare. Medium is very hard to prove without a spy dead. But since BM can now see whispers too, even that is harder to verify and prove now. The Spy would expose themselves to the Maf, and the Maf can trick the people into think they are BM, since BM can now do 'spy checks' to counter spies. And Lookout have to get lucky to spot that and KNOW that's what happened.

Also with the spy example you gave, they wouldn't know if there was a Trans or Witch controlled the Maf/GF.

---
Basically, it's not 100% hard counters. However, having every put their name and role in the will IS a hard counter if there is no Janitor or Forger. And that's very likely to happen. Especially in Ranked as if the Disguiser is the Random Maf, the Janitor/Forger would need to come from the Any role, which is very rare to happen.

[Rex]

There is this huge nitpick of mine. Lets say you get promoted to mafioso.... Why wouldn't your ability go through? It has been consistent. EVERYtime I target someone and my mafioso or gf dies, I get promoted to mafioso, and my ability gets negated. This means one night without killing. Another issue is when you're controlled by witch, meaning your role is that more useless. It should EITHER be immune to witches or not lose a disguise against immune targets.

The biggest issues of them all is, of course, the fact it is revealed as either Doctor, Serial Killer, or Disguiser and the fact people can use wills. The Disguiser NEEDS a more fair investigator results to be given, or else they risk getting lynched, even by mistake, for another evil role. Additionally, wills are just too good. Unless a Janitor or Forger exists, Disguiser is useless. Either have it like the Vampire Hunter where they only exist if Janitor or Forger exists as well, or make them more independent some other way.

[Jirodyne]

Originally posted by Rex Draco:

It should EITHER be immune to witches or not lose a disguise against immune targets

I can agree with this. Not the immune to witches, but that if the effect didn't trigger, you shouldn't lose it. The other limited effects, Surv, Vet, Vig, it makes sense for them to lose it if it's used no matter the situation.

Surv wears a vest throughout the night, and it becomes obsolute the next morning
Vet stays alert all day and night, and can't keep staying up every day and night and never sleep
And Vig has limited ammo. Shooting it isn't going to magically give you the ammo back.
Forger uses paper/ink and has limited supply. Same with Janitor, limited supply of cleaning

But why does the Disguiser lose a use, if nothing happens? He basically ransacks a dead guy's home and uses the dead guys stuff. He doesn't have anything of his own to use. If a witch controlled him, or the guy is immune, what 'item' does he 'use' that can no longer be used anymore, and was wasted?

I say have the Disguiser have unlimited use. But to counter it, if the Mafioso/GF dies, the Disguiser ALWAYS replaces them first, without exception. This way the only way the Disguiser is unopposed and really kicking butt, is if the townies can not find and hang the Mafioso/GF or the Disguiser

[Vandalay]

Originally posted by RainbowC22:

Also with the spy example you gave, they wouldn't know if there was a Trans or Witch controlled the Maf/GF.

Inaccurate, spy see's the actual visit. The spy see's who WAS visited, not who was intended to be visited. In the case of witches or transporters, the spy knows more than the actual mafia of who they visited.

. Cause Retri are very rare. Medium is very hard to prove without a spy dead.

maybe in classic, there being a retri in the ranked role list is just as likely as there being a medium or a transporter or a mayor, roughly 25%. as far as the medium difficulty of proving, it's very random, all it really takes is 1 dead townie with a last investigation result to give a reasonable amount of credibility.

Also the blackmailer etc... concept. Not really a factor there either, generally speaking mafia can't outright force statements that will become demonstrably false after acted upon, until they are within 2 dead townies away from even numbers (more if there is a possible mayor, jailor or vig alive).

[Marie]

Disguiser + Forger how-to:
1. Both choose the same guy
2. Forger forges their will to the name of the disguiser
3. Profit
Disguiser+Janitor how-to:
1. Both choose the same target
2. Janitor cleans the will
3. Profit

[Thundercracker]

what if disguiser worked more like witch? rather than forcing actions, you disguise the second target as the first.

if you really wanted to buff it further, you could also have the wills swap, too

[Vandalay]

Originally posted by Mr. L:

Disguiser + Forger how-to:
1. Both choose the same guy
2. Forger forges their will to the name of the disguiser
3. Profit

4. town see's old names role, turns to disguiser "didn't you say you were a X, that's not possible anymore" (again that's assuming you were lucky, and there is no spy/medium/retri still alive to save them any brainpower).

With a forger, in any mode with a countable role list there are 3 possibilities.

1. The disguiser's target's role is known, which means he's going to draw massive attention when the town finds another one dead. Disguiser or no, if bob claimed bodyguard, and then a bodyguard dies... all eyes are on bob.

2. Disguisers targets role is unknown... which... means effectively he's taking a risk of leaving (risk of getting seen by a lookout, or walking into a WW rampage or vet's house), to become someoen that nobody knows who he is, and thus no less suspicious than what he is

3. that persons role is secretely known, IE jailor or someone was whispered information... and now poop hits the fan.


again, that's all assuming there isn't one of the 3 auto catch disguiser town roles aren't in teh game, and everything is in the most ideal situation.




ALL/ANY version

and yeah I'm aware on all any role counting isn't possible, and the 3rd doctor claim is no less likely than the 1st, so for all any I say... it doesn't matter, you probably had 5 mafia, it's day 2.. towns already in the minority, you don't have to cover it up anyway, so the disguising is meaningless, that or a vamp or the 4th serial killer probably got the disguiser anyway. Don't bring all

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Vandalay:

ALL/ANY version

and yeah I'm aware on all any role counting isn't possible, and the 3rd doctor claim is no less likely than the 1st, so for all any I say... it doesn't matter, you probably had 5 mafia, it's day 2.. towns already in the minority, you don't have to cover it up anyway, so the disguising is meaningless, that or a vamp or the 4th serial killer probably got the disguiser anyway. Don't bring all

disguising as a whole is just a lot more viable in any/all. it does not lose it's power of replacing a "trusted" townie. vampires will know if you replace one, i believe. could be wrong, it's a very rare case.

if you get lucky and get a consig and a forger who knows his business, it's easy to get that critical lynching that gives mafia majority.

4 sk is also extremely rare, and in that case, you'll likely have something like 2 mafia, a ww, an arso, 2 witches, and one towny.... a medium. if you have at least 3 mafia, you're generally not looking at more than 3-4 other baddie roles, counting exe, jester, and witch. mebbey 1 more than that, if town is unlucky.

[GauRocks]

Given that they're planning to expand the witch faction anyway, they could probably kill two birds with one stone and just move Disguiser over to Witch, giving it the ability to blank out wills when you disguise. That way, Disguiser can operate without a second role to support it, Mafia doesn't get a third role that can erase wills, and the witch faction gets a different way to control/possess people. Plus, if you can only blank out wills, Janitor and Forger still keep some uniqueness to them.

[Vandalay]

Originally posted by Your Best Friend:

Originally posted by Vandalay:

ALL/ANY version

and yeah I'm aware on all any role counting isn't possible, and the 3rd doctor claim is no less likely than the 1st, so for all any I say... it doesn't matter, you probably had 5 mafia, it's day 2.. towns already in the minority, you don't have to cover it up anyway, so the disguising is meaningless, that or a vamp or the 4th serial killer probably got the disguiser anyway. Don't bring all

disguising as a whole is just a lot more viable in any/all. it does not lose it's power of replacing a "trusted" townie. vampires will know if you replace one, i believe. could be wrong, it's a very rare case.

if you get lucky and get a consig and a forger who knows his business, it's easy to get that critical lynching that gives mafia majority.

4 sk is also extremely rare, and in that case, you'll likely have something like 2 mafia, a ww, an arso, 2 witches, and one towny.... a medium. if you have at least 3 mafia, you're generally not looking at more than 3-4 other baddie roles, counting exe, jester, and witch. mebbey 1 more than that, if town is unlucky.

My point was that all any has no place in a balance discussion, because the sides are too random to even make any assumptions at all. My point on vampires was what's good for the goose is good for the gander, the same targets that would be appealing for a mafia member, are appealing for a vampire for the exact same reasons, and if the vampire is the second person to chose that target, the vampire kills the disguiser.

[Spoderman]

Originally posted by RainbowC22:

It won't be fair, as it would pretty much be a weaker Consig, since most everyone puts their name and roles in their wills to show they were disguised by someone.

Whats more, there would be no way to use that info during the day since only you would be able to see the wills. Whats more, it would also be too powerful if you use it on the Jailor or Invest if there is no Consig, as you would know people's roles and order to kill them to win easily.

Disguiser doesn't need a buff, as they are good on their own if played right. But also, if there is a Framer or even better a Janitor with them, they are unfindable and become the most powerful Maf in the game.

Fine, don't buff. At the very least though remove it from ranked.

[Dragortius]

I think a good way to buff disguiser and maintain his "identity" as disguiser would be that it doesn't NEED to keep disguising.
follow my thoughts:
mafia aims to kill a town, the disg will also target the town about to die. town died and role was revealed, now disg knows which role he has to play off without having to keep disguising him/her self again.
The way it is now he disguises every Night, cuz he can't maintain his disguise, and as such, most disguisers players won't even bother writing a will because they don't know what they should play off as (unless they work with consig, but then you must be lucky to have disg+consig, otherwise it flops). I'd like to hear other opinions about this and i will also accept critiscism, it helps evolve an idea.
Oh, and make him the only maf able to be rezed by retri, this way retri will also have to be careful about his ability. (or not, this way retri can find a disguiser who played really well and they can tell town.