Framer is a severely underpowered role in Normal Ranked

[ffrotty]

Framer comes up as suspicious, the only real cover is "jester" in ranked which will get attention from the real NE for an easy push...

It triggers "mafia visits" and basically confirms targets as non-mafia, and unless you get extremely lucky on a turn your ability does nothing (town coming up suspicious by a TI hitting your target is 100% neutralized and far more rare versus "mafia visited that target").

It's also a pretty simple thing to figure out "they came up suspicious the night they were investigated, FRAMER GAME"

And their one device is to essentially "self claim framed" ? This makes no sense, as it would be in response to a town claiming you're sus which is followed up with "show your will / what's your role" and you have to say something and it's probably easily countered because mafia didn't visit you that night, obviously.


Something needs tweaking here. I have stats on every game I've ever played and mafia with framer is a good 15% lower winrate than mafia without framer.


The wiki page even states "consider never visiting."


I think that's near the answer. Framer should not show up on "mafia visited." I'd be really interested to see the winrate swing if that simple tweak was put in place.

[burningmime]

Forger is pretty awful, too. You're just a diet Janitor.

[is playing tModLoader]

I agree, framer sucks ass. But hey, Its great for a fake spy claim. I think the problem with framer is that they are to frame who town thinks is sus, but there are too many things going on. Jailor could jail, or a transport. Plus fram, jest, vamp is a clear sign of a frame. Plus spy just destroys any legit framer play. Plus, most TI don't publicly announce who they are investigating.

[Rayalot72]

Mafia Deception roles in general are not very good. Spies shut them down far too easily, and most of their abilities are either weak, contextual, or extremely hard to use effectively. Janitor is the most powerful Mafia Deception, and this is really because it's more of a Mafia Support role. Its utility is "up-front," not depending on secrecy to be useful and having a clear benefit.

I would suggest a Spy nerf more than anything. Don't let them see Mafia Deception roles. If that's too much, buff their bug so that they can tell what Mafia (or Coven) roles visit their target. It could act as more of a protection, where they visit a particular person if they want to know if Mafia roles are after them.

[Tobgoblin]

Yeah the problem isnt with the mafia roles (well cept for framer which needs a buff, especially correcting the horrible invest result). Imo its with waaaayyyy too powerful town roles.

Retributionist being the worst offender as it sets back maf one night plus confirms at least 2 roles. It can also counter janitor (mafias most powerful role imo). Its like a Medium on speed.

Spy also makes all mafia visiting roles weak as said above. It can completely neuter NK and NE if they get visited and doesnt die. It confirms consorts right off the bat. The only real weakness is that its an easy role to fake.

Back on topic. Framer however needs a big buff or just get removed. It was there to counter sheriff in the early days but thats the only real role it counters. Investigators laugh at framer, jest, vamp results. Especially late game. Plus you need to figure out who will get visited to actually do something. Nah atm just remove it or at least make it like hex and douse that the change is permanent so they will always show as sus or framer, jest, vamp.

[Rayalot72]

Originally posted by Tobgoblin:

Back on topic. Framer however needs a big buff or just get removed. It was there to counter sheriff in the early days but thats the only real role it counters. Investigators laugh at framer, jest, vamp results. Especially late game. Plus you need to figure out who will get visited to actually do something. Nah atm just remove it or at least make it like hex and douse that the change is permanent so they will always show as sus or framer, jest, vamp.

I feel like Framer would do well with being able to choose the exact role a person appears as. This would let them fool Investigators, make targets appear Inno if necessary, and even trick Coven investigation results. It would also diversify them so that Hex Master isn't just a Framer that's better in every way.

[burningmime]

If I were going to redo mafia for balance, I would remove both Forger and Framer, buff Disguiser to keep his disguise once disguised, and make it so that there's always a Janitor. So Mafioso, Godfather, Janitor and one from the set {Consigliere, Buffed Disguiser, Consort, Blackmailer}.

But there's an argument to be made that maf maybe should be less powerful than town. There are 9 town and 4 mafia. So if you want it so everyone has about an equal win rate, then town should win 64% of the time (9/14), maf should win 28% of the time (4/14), and NK should win 7% of the time (1/14). NE has its own win con seperate from the others.

[DeathKnight.]

Its not that hard to thing of some ideas to make the underpowered mafia more useful in general.

2 different ways to make Framer more powerful -

1- They can see who tis are selecting live so they can also visit them if need be and mess up the results. Give tis a 5 second lock window when they select someone so they cant spam it or change their target last second to mess with framer. Framer cant be seen by lookout.
2- Framer visits permanently frame and they can also visit a mafia to make them permanently inno (active on 1 maf only) .

For Disguiser

1- Their disguise lasts for 2 days instead of 1 and they learn what they disguised as next night. They can also use that roles abilities but are also subject to their negative effects such as if they disguise as a vigi and shoot a town member they will suicide in the end. (Disguise at night. Disguised as x during day. You learn your role at night and perform all the actions that role can do. You are still disguised as x next day. At night you are back to disguiser.)

For Forger this one is quite hard to make useful imo

1- They can pre-emptively forge targets so their forge will show when town dies whenever. But this kinda makes them a less powerful janitor which sucks

or

2- They can now edit the wills of the already dead by visiting them so it gets changed for everyone next day.