Forger is step down from Janitor

[ChewMyFudge]

It is.. cause lets face it.

Janitor pros:
-Hides victim role completely.
-Makes it impossible to ress.
-Deletes will.
-Can read will that got deleted for Town.

All pros, no cons.. at all, at all

Forger pros:
-New will
That's it..

cons:
-Can't see deleted will, it's lost forever for mafs.
-Without consig or knowing target role, easy to spot will was forged.
-Victim can get ressed and victims role is still revealed after death.

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Both roles do pretty much the same thing in a way.. but from the looks of things Janitor is much more useful role than Forger having 4 pros against 1 and 3 cons of forger.

[Buvud Productions]

Messaggio originale di Silly Goose:

Thats what I just said lmao

sorry I guess I missed a few posts

[highly trained professional]

Its fine.

[Vandalay]

I've been talking about the concept on the BMG forums as well.. here's my thought to avoid the "OP Consig" problems.

1. Forger must pick his target in the day phase, Mafia see's his selected target.
2. Forger may not speak to mafia on a night he's forging.
3. Forged target gets one of 3 messages. depending on the scenerio

a. (not attacked by anything) You notice someone going through your paperwork, it is ($forgersName).
b. (attacked but immune or protected) You notice someone going through your paperwork, but he slips away in the commotion.
c. (attacked and dead). Your will has been modified.



3 is obviously made to discourage any form of strategy involving using the forger to look at wills for someone that is not intended to be killed. 2 is necessary to prevent the forger from asking the mafia not to attack a neutral evil.

[highly trained professional]

Vandalay has the best answer so far. But I dont think the forged player should get the forgers name whatever the scenario.

[ChewMyFudge]

Yeah somehow missed that part before, but picking target during day phase is one way to go about it 100%

The rest just comes down to balance but Vandalay has a good idea about it

[Vandalay]

Messaggio originale di Silly Goose:

Vandalay has the best answer so far. But I dont think the forged player should get the forgers name whatever the scenario.

Well if you have alternative suggestions to make it not a good idea to forge someone to get their will without the mafia attacking, bring it up. The only other method that comes to mind, is if the forger outranks the godfather and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the kill decision, but to me that doesn't make much sense.

In most scenerios, a forger getting the role and info from a person, is still quite likely to be more valuable than the mafia killing them. Which makes balancing around the concept very difficult.

[OnionBreath]

Messaggio originale di Vandalay:

Messaggio originale di OnionBreath:

My problem with forger is there's almost never enough time to make a well-made forged will. Half the mafiosos wait until the last couple seconds to pick their target for the night, which gives no time to draft a convincing will, and even if they choose early, you still have little time to make it up well.

If you make one up in your own will and copy/paste, you still end up having to still need some time to edit things to change names and such.

Well if you actually have enough knowledge to make a convincing forgery, than usually you can ask the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/gf to kill the target you have something for, at least to me the real issue is it's practically never that you actually have that information, and that information isn't already public domain (and thus the forgery would be spotted), and then the freak chance that situation happens to occur a spy ruins it anyway.

If the biggest weakness was your own team could make it worthless, I'd have no problem with the forger. But the larger weakness is 90% of games make it worthless by themselves.

But you see that's the problem. 90% of games make the role not that useful, and then for that 10% where it could be, your team can still make forger worthless if they don't work with you. It makes for an overall frustrating experience.

Rarely do you get a forger game where you luck into having a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and consig. And of those games, rarely do you get a GOOD ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and consig willing to act as a team. Forger is highly reliant on a set of other maf roles being available AND willing to cooperate. Otherwise, it's basically just a worse janitor.

You are right though. That second problem wouldn't really matter much if not for the first.

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1. Forger must pick his target in the day phase, Mafia see's his selected target.

This would be ideal. A forger would have more time to actually draft a good forged will. Which was my original complaint. Maybe I'm just old but it's hard typing a good forge during the limited night turn.

As for your second and third point, I don't see how that helps really. In fact, it just further gimps a role that is already gimped. If consig has a problem, then consig needs to be dealt with. Don't see the point in punishing forger more.

[Vandalay]

Messaggio originale di OnionBreath:

As for your second and third point, I don't see how that helps really. In fact, it just further gimps a role that is already gimped. If consig has a problem, then consig needs to be dealt with. Don't see the point in punishing forger more.

I think you are misunderstanding, the consig is a fine and balanced role overall. The problem is that a forger that can see the will of a town member, is a blown out of proportion too strong consig.

IE the idea of the role we want, is a forger that can modify a will and let the fake will mislead town. However what we need to not have, is a role that can peak at wills at the start of the night phase (which effectively tells not only that persons role, but everything they've investigated), and then he could relay all of that information to the mafia. This could be seen as so powerful that actually changing anyones will would be a detriment.


I mean think of the possibilities there.

Night 1 forger picks his target.. discovers it's a witch, tells mafia not to kill his chosen target, mafia hits someone else.

Night 2. Forger checks a target. See's the will
Bob the investigator: N1. Joe - Spy/BM/J,
Forger quickly announces to the mafia, "don't kill bob, kill joe instead, he's probably the jailor"

Night 3. Forger checks a target
Forger: Oh tarnation, this is the vet, and he's most likely alerting tonight, leave me to die, go for anyone else we can't lose 2 members..



Not to mention that level of OPness for an ability is pretty off the charts, no role in the game has the investigative ability to learn someones exact role, litterally before the actions of the night take place. So it's effectively a 3 time use, souped up super consig, that not only learns the targets role, but the entirety of their will, and learns that information in a way that heck he can relay the information to the mafia on a night when he was targetted by a witch and escort while he's getting shot by a vigilante and the transporter moves the target., and he still can perfectly deliver every bit of that information to the mafia that night. You wind up with a mafia investigative role that's so powerful, actually wasting his ability on forging wills seems almost unnecessary.



The consig is balanced, he gets the exact role of a town member that night, assuming nothing gets in his way.

IMO the forger is gimped, because he generally speaking cannot forge. That's why my limiters are specifically to make him about forging wills... not about giving the mafia information before the visit even takes place.

But you see that's the problem. 90% of games make the role not that useful, and then for that 10% where it could be, your team can still make forger worthless if they don't work with you. It makes for an overall frustrating experience.

yes but that's a case with all roles, you can't balance for bad players, Janitor and consig are also totally bad roles if they either don't use their ability or share the information they have.

[OnionBreath]

Messaggio originale di Vandalay:

I think you are misunderstanding, the consig is a fine and balanced role overall. The problem is that a forger that can see the will of a town member, is a blown out of proportion too strong consig.

But forgers can't see the will of a town member, only copy over it. Unless something changed recently that I am not aware of. Or maybe you're right, maybe I am misunderstanding something here. Are you advocating for forgers to be able to see someone's will a day before forging it? That would go a long way toward explaining why you're gimping it in other areas as a means of balance.

yes but that's a case with all roles, you can't balance for bad players, Janitor and consig are also totally bad roles if they either don't use their ability or share the information they have.

Yes and no. My point is not every role is equally as useless when faced with a less than stellar team. Janitor and Consig are not close to as gimped as a Forger is at present. A Janitor doesn't really require much of any team communication compared. All a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ has to tell them is "clean this one".

A Forger, on the other hand, needs information and time to write something convincing. They need to know the role of who they're up against and need the opportunity to make a will that can deceive; otherwise they are a worse Janitor. That means they're completely reliant on outside team mates going the extra mile to be put to their best use. Not just on those team mates doing their jobs but going out of their way for their sake.

And thus, in some ways from a game development perspective, you CAN balance for bad players. A Mayor in a town of people who are indecisive in their voting can change the tide. A Jailor in such a town can execute targets, lower the number of players in a game, and make up the difference. A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in a Mafia that is refusing to cooperate can still progress their objectives each night and keep killing with the hopes to off-set their lack-luster team mates. And a Consigliere, even if he's never listened to, can still gather information and relay that to his team or use it to throw off the town.

A Forger in a Mafia that isn't working for them doesn't have a card to play though. That doesn't mean an ability couldn't be granted to them to give them more autonomy and less absolute reliance.

[Vandalay]

Messaggio originale di OnionBreath:

But forgers can't see the will of a town member, only copy over it. Unless something changed recently that I am not aware of. Or maybe you're right, maybe I am misunderstanding something here. Are you advocating for forgers to be able to see someone's will a day before forging it? That would go a long way toward explaining why you're gimping it in other areas as a means of balance.
.

Yes those 3 things are caveats to the hypothetical buff concept in which the forger gets and edits the will of the person he's forging rather than having to make one out of whole cloth and a random guess of who the role is. Those side nerfs are about how to give the forger the ability to see and edit a will, without also allowing the rest of the mafia to use that information to decide if they even want to kill the person being forged.

[OnionBreath]

Messaggio originale di Vandalay:

Messaggio originale di OnionBreath:

But forgers can't see the will of a town member, only copy over it. Unless something changed recently that I am not aware of. Or maybe you're right, maybe I am misunderstanding something here. Are you advocating for forgers to be able to see someone's will a day before forging it? That would go a long way toward explaining why you're gimping it in other areas as a means of balance.
.

Yes those 3 things are caveats to the hypothetical buff concept in which the forger gets and edits the will of the person he's forging rather than having to make one out of whole cloth and a random guess of who the role is. Those side nerfs are about how to give the forger the ability to see and edit a will, without also allowing the rest of the mafia to use that information to decide if they even want to kill the person being forged.

Ahhh.. Alright that makes a lot more sense then. Sorry.

[ChewMyFudge]

In the end I think you all agree, Forger is like a hollow janitor right now. The ONLY useful thing he can do without knowing someone's role/will is just get it deleted on a short notice. Such as jailor or TI results. Still, that's pretty much what janitor would do only 3 times better; have access to victims will, hide role and make it impossible to ress.

Don't want to make mafs suddenly OP but seriously, every role should be somewhat unique and the way Forger is now it's just not unique at all. He's like a Town role compared to Maf role.. like Invest to Consig (the latter pin points exact role), Spy to BM'er (hears whispers), so on.

Actually thinking about it, consort is exactly like Escort :P, no difference. Useful tho against Jailor and Retri who wants to ress so can't say it's a downer.

[Buvud Productions]

Messaggio originale di wtc7200:

Messaggio originale di Vandalay:

I've been talking about the concept on the BMG forums as well.. here's my thought to avoid the "OP Consig" problems.

1. Forger must pick his target in the day phase, Mafia see's his selected target.
2. Forger may not speak to mafia on a night he's forging.
3. Forged target gets one of 3 messages. depending on the scenerio

a. (not attacked by anything) You notice someone going through your paperwork, it is ($forgersName).
b. (attacked but immune or protected) You notice someone going through your paperwork, but he slips away in the commotion.
c. (attacked and dead). Your will has been modified.



3 is obviously made to discourage any form of strategy involving using the forger to look at wills for someone that is not intended to be killed. 2 is necessary to prevent the forger from asking the mafia not to attack a neutral evil.

This is perfect. I reccommend no changes.

I agree... I think if the forger fails then it shoudl be like ambusher... you see there name... just saying

[Vandalay]

Messaggio originale di davide:

Messaggio originale di wtc7200:

This is perfect. I reccommend no changes.

I agree... I think if the forger fails then it shoudl be like ambusher... you see there name... just saying

Agreed there, but minimized for if it fails to no fault of it's own. IE if their target is covered by a doc, than the only huge loss is that the town learns of the existance of a forger, rather than the identity.

I do admit though, where it does get kind of messy is when you throw in witch's and transporters.

Personally I'm of the mindset that, if the forger is witched, his identity is not revealed, he does not sucesfully forge, but he also is not revealed to the witch's target. but he does lose a forgery

If the target is transported, I'd also say just a default fail (he doesn't change anyones will, he does use up a forgery, but is not revealed).

[highly trained professional]

Messaggio originale di Vandalay:

Messaggio originale di Silly Goose:

Vandalay has the best answer so far. But I dont think the forged player should get the forgers name whatever the scenario.

Well if you have alternative suggestions to make it not a good idea to forge someone to get their will without the mafia attacking, bring it up. The only other method that comes to mind, is if the forger outranks the godfather and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the kill decision, but to me that doesn't make much sense.

In most scenerios, a forger getting the role and info from a person, is still quite likely to be more valuable than the mafia killing them. Which makes balancing around the concept very difficult.

I liked your idea but I was talking about the messages and one of them told the forged one the forgers name otherwise I agree with the main idea.