Please remove vampires or rework them.

[Demon of Razgriz]

Vampires were the stupidest decision for a role to include that BMG has made. Conversion roles are a horrible idea. They encourage gamethrowing (If I am town and I know there are vamps, why help town? I will just wait until I get bit so that helping town doesn't bite me in the butt.)

[Cat Pondering At Yarn (mogging)]

For some reason peoples opinions on vampires are high. So i doubt anything will ever be changed.

[tamas.]

I find it funny, that people downtalk vampires so much here in ToS, but praise them under different names in different ToS-like games.

I don't like vampires personally, but I also don't hate them. They are interesting to come across once in a while, and add a layer of mystery to the game.

Also based on my experience, not helping town will get you in trouble, whether you yourself are town or not.

[Tatan8659]

What is wrong with vamps? I like them I usually get lucky and find mafia to kill.

[Demon of Razgriz]

Originally posted by nbc.:

I find it funny, that people downtalk vampires so much here in ToS, but praise them under different names in different ToS-like games.

I don't like vampires personally, but I also don't hate them. They are interesting to come across once in a while, and add a layer of mystery to the game.

Also based on my experience, not helping town will get you in trouble, whether you yourself are town or not.

I don't praise conversion roles in any game. What I mean by not helping town is this. Lets say you are a Vig, you are down to 5 people left, 2 vampire and 3 town. You are a Vig, you could shoot one of those vamps tonight, but, you know you are probably also going to be bit, so why should you shoot a vamp? Just shoot another townie and let the vamps bite you. You just won by gamethrowing.

Edit: Before anyone says this doesn't happen, this is Literally, word for word a game that I saw a couple weeks ago.

[Flavorable]

I've been reported by vamps once when I was mayor. I told the town when I found out it was a vampire game to whisper me every day to check if I was still mayor. When the vamps bit me, I got insta-lynched and the LO on me hanged the Vamp who bit me. I did my job, I went for my original faction's win.

Vamps is a BS faction, in my opinion. Townies are forced to gamethrow when there are vampires in the game, especially if there's only a few of them left.

I have by far the most wins with vampire (a difference of 20 wins between vamps and the second most won role), simply because in vampire games, I know which townies to bite first, because I know the townies I leave alive are the ones most eager to win and thus the most eager to throw the game my way, it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ technique, but it works every single time and that alone should be enough reason for the entire vampire role to get either reworked, or booted out.

[Demon of Razgriz]

Originally posted by Flavorable:

I've been reported by vamps once when I was mayor. I told the town when I found out it was a vampire game to whisper me every day to check if I was still mayor. When the vamps bit me, I got insta-lynched and the LO on me hanged the Vamp who bit me. I did my job, I went for my original faction's win.

Vamps is a BS faction, in my opinion. Townies are forced to gamethrow when there are vampires in the game, especially if there's only a few of them left.

I have by far the most wins with vampire (a difference of 20 wins between vamps and the second most won role), simply because in vampire games, I know which townies to bite first, because I know the townies I leave alive are the ones most eager to win and thus the most eager to throw the game my way, it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ technique, but it works every single time and that alone should be enough reason for the entire vampire role to get either reworked, or booted out.

Yeah, this is a good reason. Because you went to help your original faction win, you ended up screwing the vampires when you were forced to become a vampire. If you hadn't tried to help town win, vampires probably would have gotten it.

[Lucifer ★✬]

vamps are ok somtimes, good to kill the maf/cov.

if they bite a surv, then there ♥♥♥♥♥

[Demon of Razgriz]

Originally posted by Lucifer ★✬:

vamps are ok somtimes, good to kill the maf/cov.

if they bite a surv, then there ♥♥♥♥♥

I would much prefer to have town allies that I know are not suddenly going to switch teams on me, we could be more effective against maf/cov then having vamps.

[Pigy]

Originally posted by Flavorable:

I've been reported by vamps once when I was mayor. I told the town when I found out it was a vampire game to whisper me every day to check if I was still mayor. When the vamps bit me, I got insta-lynched and the LO on me hanged the Vamp who bit me. I did my job, I went for my original faction's win.

Vamps is a BS faction, in my opinion. Townies are forced to gamethrow when there are vampires in the game, especially if there's only a few of them left.

I have by far the most wins with vampire (a difference of 20 wins between vamps and the second most won role), simply because in vampire games, I know which townies to bite first, because I know the townies I leave alive are the ones most eager to win and thus the most eager to throw the game my way, it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ technique, but it works every single time and that alone should be enough reason for the entire vampire role to get either reworked, or booted out.

Huh, I thought vampire bites killed revealed mayors. If not, they should

[Flavorable]

Originally posted by ThisLittlePiggy:

Huh, I thought vampire bites killed revealed mayors. If not, they should

Nope, they don't.

[Pigy]

I feel like vampires are fine. Sure they should have a couple of changes, like killing revealed mayors. They aren't bad, since you can have a constant supply of new members, but thanks to the VH they aren't op. With a competent VH they'll usually be gone before the games halfway over.

Now do they encourage game throwing? Not really. Sure if there are more vamps then townies, the townies might want to become vampires, which I would hardly consider game throwing. If it comes to a point when a faction has majority over town, town doesn't really have a chance. If it were any other faction, the town would be dead. But vampires give the survivors a chance to join them.

The only problem with vamps and game throwing is when a converted townie tells the town who the vamps are. Which is where my biggest problem with vampires comes in. It is always scary as a vamp to convert some one, cause you're not sure if this person will throw the game out of spite. Especially since vampires are mainly found in all any, a game mode were people don't care about game throwing.

Vampires are alright by themselves. Being a faction that has to stay hidden and only gets stronger with time. I wouldn't consider joining the faction gamethrowing if you never had a chance of winning other wise

[Demon of Razgriz]

Originally posted by ThisLittlePiggy:

I feel like vampires are fine. Sure they should have a couple of changes, like killing revealed mayors. They aren't bad, since you can have a constant supply of new members, but thanks to the VH they aren't op. With a competent VH they'll usually be gone before the games halfway over.

Now do they encourage game throwing? Not really. Sure if there are more vamps then townies, the townies might want to become vampires, which I would hardly consider game throwing. If it comes to a point when a faction has majority over town, town doesn't really have a chance. If it were any other faction, the town would be dead. But vampires give the survivors a chance to join them.

The only problem with vamps and game throwing is when a converted townie tells the town who the vamps are. Which is where my biggest problem with vampires comes in. It is always scary as a vamp to convert some one, cause you're not sure if this person will throw the game out of spite. Especially since vampires are mainly found in all any, a game mode were people don't care about game throwing.

Vampires are alright by themselves. Being a faction that has to stay hidden and only gets stronger with time. I wouldn't consider joining the faction gamethrowing if you never had a chance of winning other wise

Town will gamethrow and purposefully NOT help town even when they could still win, because they don't want to get bit and then all the work they did to help town is now working against them. There is also something called spite bites, which I see all the time. Basically, vampires get found and there is no way for the vamps to win, so they bite the person who was leading the charge against vampires. That person then gets caught the next day and hung, and now, they don't get a win, even though they were the one responsible for getting the vampires hung and caught.

Finally, VH is not at all guaranteed. If VH was guaranteed anytime there were vamps, I might agree, but I rarely see VH when there are vamps.

[Flavorable]

Originally posted by -SG1-Shadowscall:

Town will gamethrow and purposefully NOT help town even when they could still win, because they don't want to get bit and then all the work they did to help town is now working against them. There is also something called spite bites, which I see all the time. Basically, vampires get found and there is no way for the vamps to win, so they bite the person who was leading the charge against vampires. That person then gets caught the next day and hung, and now, they don't get a win, even though they were the one responsible for getting the vampires hung and caught.

Finally, VH is not at all guaranteed. If VH was guaranteed anytime there were vamps, I might agree, but I rarely see VH when there are vamps.

Not to mention all the vamps who bite a surv instead of a townie, just for lols, even though it's completely useless and only done out of spite 9 out of 10 times.

[Bear]

The problem with Vamps is that they blur gamethrowing line and create almost legal gamethrowing situations.

In this situation, for instance

Originally posted by Flavorable:

I've been reported by vamps once when I was mayor. I told the town when I found out it was a vampire game to whisper me every day to check if I was still mayor. When the vamps bit me, I got insta-lynched and the LO on me hanged the Vamp who bit me. I did my job, I went for my original faction's win.

Flav was doing the best they could for the faction they were originally part of, but the moment they became a vampire it instantly lowered their chances of winning. By a significant amount, no less. Is this gamethrowing? It was increasing your odds for one faction, but the exact opposite for the other.

With a few exceptions, almost every action taken against another faction is explicitely to lower their odds of winning. Gamethrowing is defined as intentionally lowering your odds of winning in ToS. So when you have forced faction switchers, where is the line drawn?

On top of that, vampires were supposedly added in to lower town's overall high win rate, which ignores the actual causes of town's win rate. Bandaid on the symptoms rather than medicine for the disease, so to speak. It's well known the role list and the confirmability of almost every role was what made high tier play so static, yet they added an ill concieved faction to make balancing even harder instead. Imo vamps were made for style over sustanance, cause sure it sounds cool and like the masons of the werewolf game, it just wasn't as cool to actually play with.

[Pigy]

Originally posted by Litwick:

The problem with Vamps is that they blur gamethrowing line and create almost legal gamethrowing situations.

In this situation, for instance

Originally posted by Flavorable:

I've been reported by vamps once when I was mayor. I told the town when I found out it was a vampire game to whisper me every day to check if I was still mayor. When the vamps bit me, I got insta-lynched and the LO on me hanged the Vamp who bit me. I did my job, I went for my original faction's win.

Flav was doing the best they could for the faction they were originally part of, but the moment they became a vampire it instantly lowered their chances of winning. By a significant amount, no less. Is this gamethrowing? It was increasing your odds for one faction, but the exact opposite for the other.

With a few exceptions, almost every action taken against another faction is explicitely to lower their odds of winning. Gamethrowing is defined as intentionally lowering your odds of winning in ToS. So when you have forced faction switchers, where is the line drawn?

On top of that, vampires were supposedly added in to lower town's overall high win rate, which ignores the actual causes of town's win rate. Bandaid on the symptoms rather than medicine for the disease, so to speak. It's well known the role list and the confirmability of almost every role was what made high tier play so static, yet they added an ill concieved faction to make balancing even harder instead. Imo vamps were made for style over sustanance, cause sure it sounds cool and like the masons of the werewolf game, it just wasn't as cool to actually play with.

yeah thats a big problem. It makes them able to pre emptivley gamethrow.