AI NPCS

[AngelEyes]

EDIT: I don't expect state-of-the-art Artificial Intelligence in Medieval Engineers at any point. Although, following up on the combat overhaul I believe it's imperative to the health of this project that we get an AI overhaul and get past the barebones barbarians and deer that hold so little weight.

If a funcional AI for friendly NPC is too much to handle that is unfortunate, but I can understand. Although let us not scrap the idea altogether of having a more mature enemy AI and wildlife system with meaning and purpose to drive the players ambition. I believe this would be THE turning point for Medieval Engineers.

We would love to see this beatiful world come to life!

OP:

I grabbed this game awhile ago after I saw a youtuber playing with NPCs he could command to do his bidding. After I purchased I noticed they didn't exist and after research here learned they were removed to the malfunctions.

After reading this (http://www.medievalengineers.com/medieval-message-001/) I get somewhat depressed because if all the talk about the NPCs in that article were true, I reckon I would have 100's of hours in this game.

So I guess my question is will Further AI implementation be added to this game?

I don't expect Mount & Blade style AI here but imagine being in a Medieval Engineers world where Non Player Characters actually were a threat with their own agenda and you could recruit your own serfs and such.


Thanks.

[Arcturus]

Unfortunately Medieval lacks a lot of things that you would expect from a game of this genre, and a fair few appear to have been axed rather than never introduced. Don't be too surprised about this kind of behaviour.

Its not unusual given the game's beta status, but a lot of the features that aren't included do seem to be things rather important to the game. Stuff like beasts of burden to pull carts or flowing water, both VERY important to a medieval society and its level of technology. The AI itself isn't exactly vital but it would help add to the game, and I really don't understand why it was actually removed...

The game HAS path finding and, aside from the occasional deer getting stuck in an open mineshaft, it doesn't really seem to be too damaged by player actions. Barbarians still seem to be capable of finding the player with ease. Only reason I can think pathfinding may be an issue is if the player made moving parts like elevator shafts, but in that case that's down to user-actions rather than a fault of the devs.

Performance wise, plenty of games get away with dozens, hundreds, even thousands of active AI controllers at once... how piss-poor must Medieval's optimisation be if it can't handle a small number of simple AI following a simple loop of "go here, mine this, go here, store this"? I mean come on, Banished can handle hundreds at once and that game was made by ONE GUY with NO PREVIOUS GAMES.

I like Space Engineers, I like Medieval Engineers (for the most part), but come on Keen... you're really starting to just insult us with what is either sheer laziness or sheer incompetence.

[Arcturus]

I guess what I'm saying is that Keen House has no real reason not to add AI, but given the development of both this game and Space Engineers, I'm not going to hold hope for them implementing AI. Not because its difficult or anything, but because they simply don't care to do so.

[Mithrilchu]

reason flowing water wont be added is because of limitation of the game engine.

the official Keen Software House Discord have active veteran ME gamers and some of the devs are also active there. i suggest go there for quicker answers. you probaly wont hear answers you would like.

[AngelEyes]

I don't know what their current stance on it is. However I would love a official response to this because frankly, if they have completely scrrapped this AI vision for their game I can just get over day dreaming how amazing this game could become.

Surely it is or was a part of their vision. This is quoted from their first devblog on ME on 03/17/2017 in the first dev blog for this game.


~~~~"What defines power?”

In medieval times, and even today, a group’s power was measured by the number of people they could command and the lands they could control. In Medieval Engineers’ current state, this is directly linked to the number of members in your house, but for the future I envision NPC villagers performing the menial labor, as well as basic defensive and offensive roles.

While this is not a hard “Yes, we will add all kinds of NPCs!” to the game, it does give you an idea of the direction of the game with regards to the NPCs"~~~~

This follows

- ~~ "Of course, time and budgetary constraints will show us how far we will be able to push this direction, especially since the game needs to be fun even if you choose to play without them"~~



I don't know what their time and budget looks like. I do know though that ME is severely lacking any purpose or reason to be an actual game currently. I know this is just my opinion but I would love to see the team start working on bringing this world to life. I've searched these forums and read negative reviews enough to know I'm not the only one.

While I share you stance Barrry, I'm understanding that it can and probably is hard to implement AI in a game as complex as this escpecially when it's on an in house engine. I'm not trying to fling accusations that they are lazy. Game development is hard. Although, I bet you if I were constantly checking in on this game I would probably be somewhat sour about it.

I'm not sour just dissapointed. They don't like giving roadmaps? Fine. But I paid to support these guys and I feel at least entitled to know if their original vision of AI is still in the vision of the game or if they really did take too big of a bite here and have scrpped it altogether.

[Pigeon]

The AI was removed on the world rework, when they changed it from a flat world to an actualy world. The AI would need pathing rework and such. Now why have they not add it back? God knows. Being able to make villages, castles, and etc... with living subjects with beasts of burden to move stuff... it will be a nice game.

They probably do not want to deal with implementing the whole array of stuff animals and people would be doing but why they do not add a base line so people have something to play with, like horses, oxen, people able to do basic tasks and defend themselves etc.

They could also be still working on it and patch 7.x.x will be the big patch they drop all the peasants, animals, everything on us. Who knows.

[Pescatore]

ME does not need a planet! A flat map would be much easier to handle.
Ai and water would not such a problem like now. Rising World for example has a flat world AND water. Empyrion has semi planets (flat maps) AND water. Both of them are voxel based games - the difference are flat maps.

A big problem of the ME - planet is, that you could not build big structures. For example to build a roman castle with 300 x 200 m is impossible, or extremly ugly if you try to terraform such a plane.

So, in my opinion, Keen should make a step back to flat maps - and many things should be possible.

- AI Peasants
- Big structures
- water
- ....

[Mithrilchu]

Originally posted by Pescatore:

ME does not need a planet! A flat map would be much easier to handle.
Ai and water would not such a problem like now. Rising World for example has a flat world AND water. Empyrion has semi planets (flat maps) AND water. Both of them are voxel based games - the difference are flat maps.

A big problem of the ME - planet is, that you could not build big structures. For example to build a roman castle with 300 x 200 m is impossible, or extremly ugly if you try to terraform such a plane.

So, in my opinion, Keen should make a step back to flat maps - and many things should be possible.

- AI Peasants
- Big structures
- water
- ....

ME don't use the same engine as rising world or empyrion.

also they still experimenting with the engine, it is a slow process since they don't want to destroy the games. AI is plausible to come back. water is so far unlikely because of limitation of engine.

that what i heard. it is not confirmed, but hinted at that is the case.

[Wastefield]

AI is indeed needed to make it a game that progresses somewhere. Doing by yourself is fine at the beginning, but then chopping down an entire forest and building walls and a castle all by yourself and only for your personal use... Makes no sense. Feels like playing Space Engineers without any ships! Something needs to happen to make things go easier and more efficiently so you feel more powerful. Peasants could increase the size of your operations, but require feeding so it gives you a reason to expand your farming capacity?
If not, then much more mechanical machinery as an alternative, could steam power be used or was it all slaves back then..? ':)

[AngelEyes]

Originally posted by Mithrilchu:

ME don't use the same engine as rising world or empyrion.

also they still experimenting with the engine, it is a slow process since they don't want to destroy the games. AI is plausible to come back. water is so far unlikely because of limitation of engine.

that what i heard. it is not confirmed, but hinted at that is the case.

Quite right. I am understanding it's an in-house engine and I think that is great. In fact it's really exciting.

That's fine, I can deal with bugs and optimization issues, even if it takes years. I really would just love to see some more serious AI so this game can actually be a game. Water isn't a huge deal in my opinion because while it would be nice, water isn't something that is fundamental to this game to make it an actual survival game.

Either way I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way about the severe lack of a living world.

[Pigeon]

Re-looking the issue they had with AI was they were buggy to the 3rd degree. Hard to say if they threw the baby out with the water, killed making AI in game, or something else. Do not forget the AI has to deal with alot of scenarios unlike barbarins which are running at target till ded. As said got to to wait but people been waiting for over a year for a patch to re-add peasents and more for them to add beast of burden.

Water on the other hand.... AI frist then water one diffcult thing at a time.

[dichebach]

Honestly, I suspect that trying to add NPC algorithms to a game like this AFTER the core design is in place is just about the worst possible design decision of all. NPC logic should have come first, and the building logic flow from that. This is just a hunch, but based on this hunch, I suspect the game will never have much real reason to play it for me. I bought a year or more ago (probably on deep discount) and loaded it and realized it is a sand box builder, not an actual game and uninstalled. Space Engineers has been saved in my opinion by a handful of very good mods that at least populate the landscape (and space) with neutral and hostile NPCs (EEM and Meridius pack). There is apparently a whole reddit community devoted to making NPC content for Space Engineers. Perhaps something like this will eventually emerge for ME too. But until then, I honestly have no interest to play it.

[AngelEyes]

Originally posted by Pigeon:

Re-looking the issue they had with AI was they were buggy to the 3rd degree. Hard to say if they threw the baby out with the water, killed making AI in game, or something else. Do not forget the AI has to deal with alot of scenarios unlike barbarins which are running at target till ded. As said got to to wait but people been waiting for over a year for a patch to re-add peasents and more for them to add beast of burden.

Water on the other hand.... AI frist then water one diffcult thing at a time.

I certainly hope they didn't give up altogether. ME feels little way too empty. Why wouldn't I just load up Besieged and play that instead? I agree with the water though. AI should more definitely come first.

Originally posted by dichebach:

Honestly, I suspect that trying to add NPC algorithms to a game like this AFTER the core design is in place is just about the worst possible design decision of all. NPC logic should have come first, and the building logic flow from that. This is just a hunch, but based on this hunch, I suspect the game will never have much real reason to play it for me. I bought a year or more ago (probably on deep discount) and loaded it and realized it is a sand box builder, not an actual game and uninstalled. Space Engineers has been saved in my opinion by a handful of very good mods that at least populate the landscape (and space) with neutral and hostile NPCs (EEM and Meridius pack). There is apparently a whole reddit community devoted to making NPC content for Space Engineers. Perhaps something like this will eventually emerge for ME too. But until then, I honestly have no interest to play it.

It sounds like you are coming into this the exact same way I did. It's tough. I feel like such a nerd getting feeling so strongly about a video game but when something is .. >< THAT CLOSE to being glorious, it really drives me I guess.

[VeiL]

Even if I could only have one AI companion in this game I would be happy. Especially if I could make weapons/clothes and armor for it and be able to choose the gender. I'd be happy to see more wildlife too. I use to really enjoy the companion mods in Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim. Devs these days seem to focus on multiplayer code though so I won't hold my breath haha.

[AngelEyes]

Originally posted by Jaymo:

Even if I could only have one AI companion in this game I would be happy. Especially if I could make weapons/clothes and armor for it and be able to choose the gender. I'd be happy to see more wildlife too. I use to really enjoy the companion mods in Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim. Devs these days seem to focus on multiplayer code though so I won't hold my breath haha.

Totally. More wildlife and cosmetics would be a little more than welcome.

I'm at the point now though where whilst I would love the companion system back honestly all I really want is some kind of real threat from the NPC's. Think like 7 Days to Die. A real reason to actually build my castle for real defense.

Yeah the bit you said about multiplayer seems unfortunately true. Especially in ME's case, because the game is pretty much just a large sandbox with no real reason to do anything besides say "look what I made".

I don't really think Roleplayers would find much of a home here without more cosmetics and such. Besides, in a medieval world these things are a must have anyway. :)

[VeiL]

Yeah imagine if you could have stuff like pigs/goats/horses/chickens etc.. Plough/pull stuff with a horse/donkey/bull etc..
- Water wells with rope & bucket.
- Hire NPC mercs/farmhands etc
- Water wheels
And like you said have multiple types of threat.
How awsome would it be to fill a cart full of stuff you made/harvested/grew and ride it to the next town and sell it. Might need to hire a guard for the trip etc..