goatfolk sowers can get shafted

[The Worm in RFK's Brain]

congratulations to the devs on the narrative awards!! they absolutely deserve it, this game is an incredible labor of love with such a unique and beautiful world and story that i am constantly falling more in love with.

with that being said, if me or my companion get one shot by a basic tier 1 goatfolk enemy throwing one of their 50 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ infinite range magical death grenades that seems to have a 25 percent chance of instantly dealing my characters entire health bar one more time im going to drink bleach and explode a flashbang directly into my corneas.

also vortices. ♥♥♥♥ vortices. its cool the first time my companion gets whisked away underground and i have to jump in after them, its not cool the fiftieth time they just happen to walk directly into one despite the fact that that is extremely stupid and also dumb. i mean for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake, hes the god of apes, he should know better.

okay i feel better now

[Muntus]

The goatfolk sowers exist for the sole purpose of punishing players who try to run low-toughness builds. The devs can't stand that sort of person.

[glass zebra]

The sower seeds to something like 13-20 dmg (+ a tiny bit if you get pen'd). Are you sure you don't stand close to the corpse of another sower when you get 1shot by another sower? Explosives on the ground can explode when hit by other explosives.

For the vortices you can use normality. You can either use normality gas grenades or some similar source or give your companion an onthological anchor. That has a pretty decent chance of destroying vortices quickly instead of getting sucked in.

[The Worm in RFK's Brain]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

The sower seeds to something like 13-20 dmg (+ a tiny bit if you get pen'd). Are you sure you don't stand close to the corpse of another sower when you get 1shot by another sower? Explosives on the ground can explode when hit by other explosives.

thats one way they can one shot you but they can also just perma stunlock you until you've been bounced around so many times by sower seeds that you're a steaming pile of meat. if you're a melee-centered build you essentially just have to run away (which barely works since they have the farthest throw range ive ever seen) until they run out of seeds and even then theres probably two more right behind them waiting for you. even on a higher toughness character where they're more manageable they still remain by far the strongest goatfolk enemy. ive literally melee'd pink name goatfolk to death without taking a single point of damage only to then be annihilated instantly by sower seeds. its also pretty much impossible to stop yourself from being next to the body of a sower you just killed when you're underground and cramped into a tunnel.

For the vortices you can use normality. You can either use normality gas grenades or some similar source or give your companion an onthological anchor. That has a pretty decent chance of destroying vortices quickly instead of getting sucked in.

now THATS a good idea, thanks. i still hate how readily the AI will walk directly into the area where a massive rip in the fabric of spacetime just appeared but at least this should help them be slightly less suicidal. <3

[The Worm in RFK's Brain]

Originally posted by Muntus:

The goatfolk sowers exist for the sole purpose of punishing players who try to run low-toughness builds. The devs can't stand that sort of person.

yeah thats pretty much what ive come to discover. weird way to punish creativity but go off i guess...
they're still definitely the most powerful goatfolk enemies even with high toughness (other than maybe a shaman that spawned with sunder mind if have high toughness but low willpower)

[tikiman572]

While Sowers can definitely be a pain, they can also be a source of infinite amusement because they seem to have few survival instincts whatsoever when it comes to throwing those seeds. The most recent Goatfolk village I visited (read: razed) had two Sowers. The first Sower's head exploded from sudden and extreme psychic trauma and the other Sower attempted to avenge his fallen comrade by throwing one of their seeds.

Unfortunately, they botched the throw, and it landed right next to them, their yurt, and a Bully. The Sower was instantly obliterated, half of the yurt went missing, and the Bully was in a bad way, but alive. Not for long, though.

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by The Worm in RFK's Brain:

Originally posted by glass zebra:

The sower seeds to something like 13-20 dmg (+ a tiny bit if you get pen'd). Are you sure you don't stand close to the corpse of another sower when you get 1shot by another sower? Explosives on the ground can explode when hit by other explosives.

thats one way they can one shot you but they can also just perma stunlock you until you've been bounced around so many times by sower seeds that you're a steaming pile of meat. if you're a melee-centered build you essentially just have to run away

I am not sure how they would be able to stun you at all. They don't have any ability that stuns. As a melee, the safest place is directly in melee range with them, since they will stop throwing if they are in their own explosion radius (disregarding missfire radius). Of course it can be hard to get there with normal charge range. Waiting behind walls is usually the best option in general if you don't have great agility for ranged combat or no movement/ranged mutations left.

Originally posted by The Worm in RFK's Brain:

its also pretty much impossible to stop yourself from being next to the body of a sower you just killed when you're underground and cramped into a tunnel.

It is harsh when there is another sower already in range, but if not, picking up the seeds will take care of that risk. Underground dives are imo in general not the most balanced thing in the game, but that is a choice a player makes by themselves. The main quest dungeons are usually more balanced imo.

[John Snail]

Sowers have been bugged since the Spring Molting update, they weren't able to throw from halfway across the screen before.
https://bitbucket.org/bbucklew/cavesofqud-public-issue-tracker/issues/11986/npcs-sometimes-throw-things-from-halfway

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by John Snail:

Sowers have been bugged since the Spring Molting update, they weren't able to throw from halfway across the screen before.
https://bitbucket.org/bbucklew/cavesofqud-public-issue-tracker/issues/11986/npcs-sometimes-throw-things-from-halfway

Goatfolk sowers have an average of +6 strength mod, which means they have a base range of 10 + the random extra for the yellow throwing zone. The reason they started throwing so much further than they did in the past was this change:

NPCs are now more willing to throw things and fire missile weapons at forcefields and at targets hiding behind trees.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/333640/announcements/detail/3655282771742380712

That patch made Goatfolk villages much more brutal, since before that you could easily avoid most of the throwing due to the many trees cutting LOS in that area. After that patch they started sniping you from far away, often without you even being able to see them (like pointed out in this comment on that same patch).

The 10+ throwing range is should not be a bug itself with their stats. Players can also throw that far with that average 28 strength:
https://images.steamusercontent.com/ugc/22063384215007887/ED25DDAB9F9D5CEBDE06BA339F4423078717771C/
With higher strength, deft throwing or implants you can throw even further. You can definitely make characters that can throw across the entire screen.


There was also an undocumented change a while ago that made thrown items always collide with the first creature in line. Before that thrown items would only collide will walls etc. and otherwise try to land on the tile targeted, which means the throwing variation was able to make the throw land in front, on or behind the tile you targeted and throws could skip over creatures in line.

After that stealth change it instead became a 2/3 to directly hit a targeted tile with a creature and a 1/3 to land in front, which made throwing combat without deft throwing much more accurate (and it lost the option to throw over targets). That change probably came with the Creatures of the 7th Plague patch.

[Aog]

So I know this isn't a miracle fix but all those defoliant grenades you probably have a million of make the sower seeds disintegrate

[Radical Rat]

Originally posted by Aog:

So I know this isn't a miracle fix but all those defoliant grenades you probably have a million of make the sower seeds disintegrate

say whaaat

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by Radical Rat:

Originally posted by Aog:

So I know this isn't a miracle fix but all those defoliant grenades you probably have a million of make the sower seeds disintegrate

say whaaat

They are plants, like some other equipment (and severed plant parts). Plant parts in the inventory do not get damage from defoliant, but equipped ones and stuff on the floor does. Goatfolk sowers seem too stupid to equip another seed when their last one got destroyed. I think their AI might rely on the next grenade auto-equip after throwing. Having defoliant at that part of the game might not be super common though and defoliant grenades are more expensive than others.

I usually try to get Ego up when I get to Ezra with multiple heads (and hopefully two-faced knollworm skulls) by eating some hulk honey food for easy dismembering a screen of palms just south to get +2 Ego for each face/+8 total. Had to find out the hard way that those get instantly destroyed when facing defoliant. Usually when enemies throw that stuff at you you just think "okay? You just wasted your turn", but it can hurt quite a bit.. not much literally though, since the damage is super low on creatures.

[The Worm in RFK's Brain]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

I am not sure how they would be able to stun you at all. They don't have any ability that stuns. As a melee, the safest place is directly in melee range with them, since they will stop throwing if they are in their own explosion radius (disregarding missfire radius). Of course it can be hard to get there with normal charge range. Waiting behind walls is usually the best option in general if you don't have great agility for ranged combat or no movement/ranged mutations left.

just like any other explosion in the game, if it knocks you against a wall it can stun you. duh.

[Radical Rat]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

They are plants, like some other equipment

Now i'm curious - if you pick Photosynthetic Skin and then equip your own face will it also be destroyed?

[avennelakanti]

Originally posted by Radical Rat:

Originally posted by glass zebra:

They are plants, like some other equipment

Now i'm curious - if you pick Photosynthetic Skin and then equip your own face will it also be destroyed?

Nope. Just tested it. Defoliant only damages the limbs of plants. While defoliant damages non-plant creatures with Photosynthetic Skin, their body parts do not have Photosynthetic Skin and thus are unaffected. Defoliant checks if the affected object is either a plant or has Photosynthetic Skin to deal damage.

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by The Worm in RFK's Brain:

Originally posted by glass zebra:

I am not sure how they would be able to stun you at all. They don't have any ability that stuns. As a melee, the safest place is directly in melee range with them, since they will stop throwing if they are in their own explosion radius (disregarding missfire radius). Of course it can be hard to get there with normal charge range. Waiting behind walls is usually the best option in general if you don't have great agility for ranged combat or no movement/ranged mutations left.

just like any other explosion in the game, if it knocks you against a wall it can stun you. duh.

That is not a mechanic that exists in the game. There are knockbacks that have a stun by themselves like blast cannon projectiles, stunning force or slam, but simply getting knocked against a wall does not stun you by itself. If you get knocked into a wall by an explosion, you simply get the message "OUCH! You collide with a [Wall]." You don't even take extra damage from that.