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Being 4 Strength higher, for the first half of the game, is invaluable. Depending on what you're fighting in the mid-mid-late game, it might have high AV, and a couple points of PV might make an enormous difference.
Sure, it's less significant in the late game, but even in that moment when the difference is smallest, it's still a needless loss.
I just can't justify starting with high Int. I can't.
Did god himself etch the rules for tinkering upon stone tablets? No, it's a video game, relax. Making tinkering so useful while at the same time such a chore in terms of stat dump is not good game design, and I'm alright if you dont agree. However your odd take on how I cant voice this opinion is very strange, controlling behavior. No I'll continue to say what I like regardless of how that makes you feel
I have never created a character that didn't get to high enough Int to learn tinker 3 eventually, just through levels increasing all attributes, a couple points into Int, and a few eater's nectar (like, 4, 5), if they survive long enough, that is. Eventually, you're going to get it. It's not necessary, but it's very useful. "50+ eater's nectar?" lmao, do you create characters with 1 int or something, I literally just put everything up to 18 or 20 on character creation except Ego, usually, unless it's an esper focused character, but even then..... you start getting so many ego boosts as an esper that it becomes problematic to have too much ego.... and the difference in prices seems like a lot early on, like, very early on.... but I've literally got 100,000 drams of water worth of equipment in my inventory right now with nothing to spend it on.
If you're having so much trouble in the early game, just get a companion or two early on. It's very easy, especially if you take Joppa start, but even if you don't, it's very easy to get Wardens Esther or the High Priest, or, take a trip to Yd and get Warden Une. Hell, get the ape god if you can get your ape rep up haha. They are less useful later, but you can just let them die or tell them to stay somewhere if you don't want to use them anymore. Some areas/quests are a nightmare to shepherd followers with. I mostly just solo anyway, or take one companion.... but taking them to Klanq, Spindle, Moon Stair, they just get fungal infections, which are super annoying, or end up dying later, no matter who they are or how strong they are (or, perhaps more commonly, get sucked through a spacetime vortex hahha).
The skill points thing has already been addressed. If you start with high Int you'll have all the skills you want long before the endgame, the extra Int will do nothing for you, and you'll know the extra points you put in it should have been put into something else. If you want to optimize, you have to deliberately start with your Int lower.
If you start with, say, 14 Int, by the time you're level 36 you'll have 20 Int. That's 9 points missing for Tinker III. At +1 Int per 4 Drops of Nectar on average, that's 36 Drops of Nectar required to bridge the gap. I have no idea why you're talking about Eaters' Nectar, that would be a waste of attribute points and you'd actually need 50% more (+1 Int per 6 Eaters' Nectar on average, you'd need 54 Eaters' Nectar!). Unless you're a True Kin, in which case you wouldn't want to waste Nectar on Int regardless.
Sure, Espers can get as much Ego as they want. But other characters can't get as much of their main attribute as they want.
The early game is the early game. Depending on your build, and of course luck, your survival rate can be pretty much anything. 60%, 90%. Doesn't change the fact that a fighter having 2 fewer PV is crippled for more than half the game.
I got Oboroqoru once, just to see, but normally I don't take companions. They're annoying and I don't like the "pet class" gameplay at all. I'm sure some people enjoy it, but it's not something I personally find fun. I typically play solo in almost all games, even those meant to have four players. Final Fantasy or Eye of the Beholder 2? I was a kid and killed off three characters so I could have a solo run. Arcanum? Virtually always do solo playthroughs. Legend of Grimrock 2? Skipped making three characters in party creation. Mechwarrior V? Never deployed more than one mech at a time.
Not that having companions is a valid reason for wasting attribute points...
"So Tinkering III was basically removed from the game. Only people with characters that have eaten 50+ Drops of Nectar can reasonably use it."
That's what you said earlier...
I mean, if you choose not to use the tools the game gives you, and then get annoyed that the game isn't working for you, that's.... not really a problem with the game. I don't like herding companions either, but if your concern is dying so much at the start because you have a few points less in strength, like, there's other things you can do besides that as well. Use ranged weapons, mutations, fight tactically so you don't get overwhelmed. You could prepare for a tough combat, dig a hole in a wall so that there's only one tile an enemy can come at you at a time. Take mutations that act as an eject button; for example, fly will get you out of any overworld encounter, at any time, by activating it and leaving the map. There's literally nothing that can stop you from doing this (unless you're already frozen/in stasis or whatever). Take phase so you can just phase out of the way of harm and go straight through walls. Teleport, Teleport Other, lots of tools to escape harm. I completely disagree with your statement that 2 fewer PV is crippled for half the game, I don't even know what to say to that. Besides saying, like, no, no you aren't?? I dunno
This game gives you so, so many tools to deal with things in creative ways, if you choose to use them. If you want to solo the game and bump everything to death and ignore all tactics, then, cool. But that's not the dev's fault.
Starting with low int will leave your character with less weapon skills and overall less skill options compared to someone who starts with 18 int and 20 str until mid to late game. Getting your important weapon skill, single weapon fighting and endurance skills up does so much for a character, even if you choose to ignore tinker in early game and so do several other skills.
Tinkering and int are pretty much the things that open up more options earlier and it is fitting that int gates tinkering, since int is all about getting more options and power from skills. Yes that does diminish very late in the game when you get skill points you can't use anymore, though tinkering itself gets stronger towards the endgame. You said that you are not talking about endgame and that things tinkering can give you as power in endgame are not important, but OP was talking about the usefulness of tinkering from mid to end and ignoring tinkering for that is pretty hard due to all the stuff it offers, even if the stat that unlocks it gets less useful towards that point in the game.
Exactly. I have no idea why you're talking about Eaters' Nectar when I'm talking about Drops of Nectar.
You wouldn't just inject raw Eaters' Nectar. At best it would yield 6 attribute increases for 6 doses on average, and they would be purely random. Drops of Nectar give 6 attribute increases for only 4 doses, and while the procs are less even, the attribute gains are way more reliable (+1 to all).
If you wanted to get from 20 Int to 29 Int, you'd ingest 36 Drops of Nectar, not inject 54 Eaters' Nectar and hope the points go where you want them.
I have played in many different ways, not that they are that different from each other. Firing a Phase Cannon at enemies isn't that much more complicated than bumping into them. I just happen to not like "pet" builds. I prefer playing the game rather than roleplaying a bystander who watches the game play itself.
As for OP's question, no, I've never had a character go for very long without using tinkering, it's just too useful. I don't think the game is even meant to be played without tinkering. And, if you think about it, role-playing-wise, probably not many would survive a post-apocalyptic world full of fantastic tech without knowing how to use some of that tech. They'd get eaten alive by the people who do use it (in Qud's case, possibly or probably quite literally)
Yeah, I play with no PV cap. PV caps on weapons are pathetically low, making a large number of enemies virtually invincible.
+2 PV is far, far, far, far, far more valuable in the first half of the game than extra skill points are. Even in the endgame, when +2 PV is far less significant, it's still better than skill points because then skill points are entirely worthless. If you put too many points into Int you got pretty much all you needed halfway through the game. It's very important not to take too much Int at character creation.
I'm not suggesting ignoring Tinkering entirely (it's one of the game's main features), but rather avoiding Tinker III. There's just too much of a gap between 23 Int and 29 Int.
If you think getting 2 extra PV when you're already x4 penetrating most everything is more valuable than filling out weapon skills dramatically faster, I don't know what to tell you. Single weapon fighting literally doubles your damage and also adds that x1 extra penetration you seem to think is worth dumping int over.
My latest character is level ~40, just hit 29 int with a little extra investment, and still hasn't run out of things to spend skill points on quite yet. There are a ton of useful skills, especially if you're melee. I never start a character with less than 18 int. You're undervaluing the heck out of int, and that's fine, you do you.. but don't do that then complain that you're missing out on tinkering III? That's the tradeoff you're choosing for yourself. Believe it or not, that 2 less PV is not going to cripple your character.
I don't. I have never used a mod for this game and likely never will. Attacks that have no PV cap already exist in the game, I have no need to mod them in.
Also, I never said I was having trouble. I sometimes die in the early game, like most people, but in general I have a fairly high success rate. Because I don't do crazy thinks like sacrifice 2-3 PV on a fighter just so I can get Tinker III eventually.
Fighting an enemy where it is strong is not really an efficient thing to do and those high AV enemies early on have other weaknesses (e.g. tortoises hardly do anything except having AV). They are definitely by no means virtually invincible if you have low PV and you are better of killing them with something else than trying to overcome their PV with heavy investment. If you still want to kill them in melee and have something to remove their "invincibility": single weapon fighting penetrating strikes always penetrates at least once, regardless of enemy armor. You can also put elemental mods on your melee weapons with tinkering 1 or use grenades when someone struggles. Even muskets can usually overcome the AV of the early ones, with no stat investment.
Yeah that was one of my biggest gripes with int. I'd say getting int 23 was very good, but after that became pretty annoying to just let a stat grow and "wait". Sure you get more skills, which is great, but investing 6 more points into a stat to take the next good skill was not really satisfying. They've added Apothecary at 25 int though and generally more useful skills.