Bionic Slots is unfun and a relic.

[IllegibleScream]

If you disagree that's fine, but I severely dislike the practice of limiting cybernetics with a bunch of different systems, when I can go crazy with mutations.

Does anyone have a mod that lets you get around the cybernetic slot limitations? I want to shove my torso full of chrome and become a temple to the Omnissiah.

[SaD-82]

What do you mean by "limiting cybernetics and going crazy with mutations"?

You can't go crazy with mutations and cybernetics aren't limited.
What I mean by this? You have to acquire new mutations (on level up or through other, rather dangerous, means).
In the same vein you have to acquire new cyber wedges to buy cyber-tiers. The higher your tier the more cybernetics you can install. You can go full bonkers with cybernetics. And arguably even more bonkers than with mutations.

[Frank]

to be fair, there's only one or at most two good options for each slot. Arm is always stabilizer arm locks, back is always gun rack, body is the only seriously contested slot with the choice between bioplant, magnet, and recompositor, face and feet are all pretty meh, hands has two options depending on whether you're running pistols or rifles/heavy.

If anything, I find the lack of competitive options to be underwhelming, but I also read somewhere that the entire system is due for a major overhaul before release.

[IllegibleScream]

It's the slot system itself. Let me stuff multiple widgets into my arms. CDDA is superior in this respect, since they examined Bionic Slots as a concept and chose to leave it out of the default options due to how it limits players.

If you like the slots system, then good for you. I'm looking for options to crack it open so I can enjoy my transhumanist cybernetic collector who slowly augments themselves into a high-speed low drag extinction event.

I like the license system, and the credit wedges. My problem is purely with the limitations of the slots themselves. Only one bionic per body part doesn't feel right with how wacky the setting of Qud is.

[I blame Earthshaker]

The slotability is nice for switching stuff out, but the linkage to body parts can seem unnecessarily limiting compared to mutations. Keep in mind that some mutations and some deficiencies are mutually exclusive. But it is kind of weird that there aren't mutations that have BOTH serious benefits balanced by deficits... the closest is probably photosynthetic skin, since it ends up making a player vulnerable to defoliant.

But then again, photosynthetic skin isn't really that good. It seems more vestigial, like kindle.

[Dr.Desty Nova]

Originally posted by Frank:

to be fair, there's only one or at most two good options for each slot. Arm is always stabilizer arm locks, back is always gun rack.

Depends, I usually end up using arms slot for penetreting radar or onboard recoiler, Far more useful stuff in the long run than slightly reduced randomness in your shot accuracy.

Gunrack is fun but is a bit laking compared to Cathedra. I've found unlimited flying, +50hp, +100 carry many time more useful in the long run than carrying 2 more guns especially if you factor in the 3 differents but equially useful ability of each cathedra variant (we don't talk about the white one).

Also, if you really want to, I'm fairly sure you can still equip both the gunrack and a cathedra at the same time if you equip an equipement rack before hands.
If anything, more slot duplication possibility like this would probably be a more elegant answer to the issue of both the bodypart slot limitation and the cybernetics system seeming less wild than mutation to some players. Switching helping hand as a cybernetic that add 2 robotic arms for example.

[Frank]

Originally posted by Dr.Desty Nova:

Originally posted by Frank:

to be fair, there's only one or at most two good options for each slot. Arm is always stabilizer arm locks, back is always gun rack.

Depends, I usually end up using arms slot for penetreting radar or onboard recoiler, Far more useful stuff in the long run than slightly reduced randomness in your shot accuracy.

Gunrack is fun but is a bit laking compared to Cathedra. I've found unlimited flying, +50hp, +100 carry many time more useful in the long run than carrying 2 more guns especially if you factor in the 3 differents but equially useful ability of each cathedra variant (we don't talk about the white one).

Also, if you really want to, I'm fairly sure you can still equip both the gunrack and a cathedra at the same time if you equip an equipement rack before hands.
If anything, more slot duplication possibility like this would probably be a more elegant answer to the issue of both the bodypart slot limitation and the cybernetics system seeming less wild than mutation to some players. Switching helping hand as a cybernetic that add 2 robotic arms for example.

Cathedra always seemed like an incredibly underpowered meme item to me, flying is useless because you spend most of your time in caves, 100 carry isn't that much, sure it's some, but not worth trading two guns for, and 50hp is not something I would care about at level 30+ when you are actually able to find a cathedra, and the active abilities are all garbage low level mutations only one of which actually does damage

[Dr.Desty Nova]

Originally posted by Frank:

Cathedra always seemed like an incredibly underpowered meme item to me, flying is useless because you spend most of your time in caves, 100 carry isn't that much, sure it's some, but not worth trading two guns for, and 50hp is not something I would care about at level 30+ when you are actually able to find a cathedra, and the active abilities are all garbage low level mutations only one of which actually does damage

I mean, you spending your time in caves doesn't mean everyone do. Arguably, you spend a fair bit of time traveling from places to places, flying allow you to not get lost, travel faster and find more ruins. Only half of the main storyline is in no flying zone. The whole rainbow forest can be made infintly less painful by just beeing able to fly faster than the sludge.

50hp is still 50hp better having them than not having them.

100 carry is still 100 carry

The abilities are all the equivalent of lvl10mutation. Not sure where you've seen they ever where low level. Efficiency wise, the black cathedra is an emergeny escape button, it work while froen, it work in combat, it doesn't cost action point. The red one is a 5x5 lvl10 pyrokinesis field that moves with you and with a cooldown affected by willpower and compute power meaning you could probably spam it.

Two more guns are just two more guns. You can kill stuff bit quicker. But whatever you couldn't kill with 2 you can't kill with 4. And if you end up in a situation where you still can't kill enemy fast enough you still have to run or somehow ammend your strategy, instead of simply keep shooting with your 2 guns cause none can touch you while flying.

I've noticed I forgot about the +100 move speed, so there is this as well.

The idea is that there is one stuff that give you a burst damage boost (provided you already spent 250sp and installed giant hands) vs one thare give you various stuff that boost your survival skill as a whole.

[Nihilum]

Originally posted by I blame Earthshaker:

The slotability is nice for switching stuff out, but the linkage to body parts can seem unnecessarily limiting compared to mutations. Keep in mind that some mutations and some deficiencies are mutually exclusive. But it is kind of weird that there aren't mutations that have BOTH serious benefits balanced by deficits... the closest is probably photosynthetic skin, since it ends up making a player vulnerable to defoliant.

But then again, photosynthetic skin isn't really that good. It seems more vestigial, like kindle.

I think cybernetics could benefit from the ability to replace limbs. If a True kin loses a hand, why can't he install a bionic hand to replace it? Lose an arm? Bionic Arms are there. Lose your face? We've got beautiful, cherubic, and custom visages. It's certainly help sell the cyborg fantasy while giving a unique way to mitigate limb loss.

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by Frank:

Originally posted by Dr.Desty Nova:

Depends, I usually end up using arms slot for penetreting radar or onboard recoiler, Far more useful stuff in the long run than slightly reduced randomness in your shot accuracy.

Gunrack is fun but is a bit laking compared to Cathedra. I've found unlimited flying, +50hp, +100 carry many time more useful in the long run than carrying 2 more guns especially if you factor in the 3 differents but equially useful ability of each cathedra variant (we don't talk about the white one).

Also, if you really want to, I'm fairly sure you can still equip both the gunrack and a cathedra at the same time if you equip an equipement rack before hands.
If anything, more slot duplication possibility like this would probably be a more elegant answer to the issue of both the bodypart slot limitation and the cybernetics system seeming less wild than mutation to some players. Switching helping hand as a cybernetic that add 2 robotic arms for example.

Cathedra always seemed like an incredibly underpowered meme item to me, flying is useless because you spend most of your time in caves, 100 carry isn't that much, sure it's some, but not worth trading two guns for, and 50hp is not something I would care about at level 30+ when you are actually able to find a cathedra, and the active abilities are all garbage low level mutations only one of which actually does damage

After BS you are hardly ever in caves again if you follow the main quest, unless you choose to and having one before that is very unlikely. Everything after BS is so much easier with perma flying. The activated abilities scale with compute power and can easily overshadow mutations at their level. 2 more guns are more of a meme imo. 2-5 guns already kill most enemies quickly. Utility is can be more powerful later on, especially if it is "most things can't hit me while I use guns". At 140 computer power (basically requires a build to got that high though), you also have 0% swoop fall chance and you can melee everything safely.

Originally posted by Dr.Desty Nova:

The red one is a 5x5 lvl10 pyrokinesis field that moves with you and with a cooldown affected by willpower and compute power meaning you could probably spam it.

The cooldown with compute power only goes as low as the mutation, but the level also scales. 100 computer power = level 20 pyrokineses with a bigger radius that moves with you, around you and can't hurt you. It also takes no turn to cast. Computer power also increases flight level.

Originally posted by Dr.Desty Nova:

(we don't talk about the white one).

That one can still grant you 100% resistance to all light based attacks in the game. Glitter dust is pretty strong (for that specific case), but is very limited without the cathedra. Afaik the scaling compute power does not work correctly though (it does not increase density, but gas level).

The worst parts about the cathedras is to find them and stunning force seemingly not working correctly.


Most cybernetics can offer you a lot for their cost and you can make really nice builds with most of them. (I really don't know why I should ever use the stabilisers outside of a ranged sniping focused builds or if I don't have anything else. They only lower the variance and do not really make you noticeably hit better at lower ranges or higher levels.) If you could combo them at will, that would make the system less interesting, while granting them a lot more power. Both is not needed compared to their current state.

I don't know of a mod, but if you want to change it yourself, you can go into the items.xml and look for all instances of "CyberneticsBaseItem" and change the slots attribute to "Slots="Hands,Feet,Body,Back,Face,Arm,Head". That will still limit the max amount of cybernetics, but you can freely use them in any slot. Someone skilled can probably write a regex for that.

[|_| Clyax]

I agree with a condition. Yes, it's not fair compared to mutations in that mutations can keep increasing in power and in number forever (until you run out of mutations). Cybernetics are underpowered in that you have to choose between many of them due to the slots system and body part slot compatibility system, and only a few mutations are mutually exclusive or are tied to body part slots. I won't get into how you have to find cybernetics and license wedges as that is a double-edged sword depending on how good you are at the game.

However, there's one thing cybernetics don't have, psychic glimmer. Mutations are throttled a bit by psychic glimmer in that you either have to not exceed a limit or get better at the game to take on more difficulty for your powers. It might be tempting to take out the body part slots for cybernetics in exchange for a "humanity" stat that makes you go psycho at a certain point like in cyberpunk games, but that's a bad idea because a. being handicapped in real life and then getting a body augmentation doesn't make you a psychopath, and b. that would be a hard limit while psychic glimmer is a soft limit.

tl;dr My solutions, pick one:
1. Make cybernetics be mechanically balanced like mutations. Have cybernetics still need to be found in the game and require license costs to install so they're different from mutations. Make only some mutually exclusive (ie. hyper-elastic tendons vs motorized treads). Keep their powers and benefits as they are. Have something like psychic glimmer that causes Putus Templar hunters to come after to to take your cybernetics "for the greater good.". This way you either have to not have so many cybernetics (or as powerful cybernetics), or get better at the game to manage the increased difficulty. Should be able to reuse some code from Psychic Glimmer effects. (Edit: I say Putus Templars because you can butcher them for more cybernetics like how psychic hunters can have their minds absorbed by you when you defeat them. Maybe you can have these Putus Templar Hunters have more cybernetics than average or have the cybernetics scale off the zone tier)

2. Same as above, but find some other way to balance cybernetics in place of psychic glimmer.

3. Keep everything about cybernetics the same, but make them more powerful than mutations because you're so limited with cybernetics compared to mutations.

Thoughts?

[glass zebra]

If you follow the story you usually end the game when you still could use some credits to put some better stuff into slots. Cybernetics definitely grow a lot in power. Glimmer is also not a pure power curb. It provides both danger and benefit.

[SaD-82]

Originally posted by | Clyax:

3. Keep everything about cybernetics the same, but make them more powerful than mutations because you're so limited with cybernetics compared to mutations.

Thoughts?

My thought:
Cybernetics are more powerful than mutations - for various reasons.

One of them being: You don't have to level them to scale them - they are powerful right from the get go. Some arguably even more powerful than their mutation counterparts.

Another one being: You don't have any delay in using them in their powerful stage. Regarding mutations you either have to specialize for quite some time to be able to survive a huge amount of the game or you end up as jack of all trades and are vulnerable because of that. In contrast: Cybernetics aren't essential, thus giving way more freedom in choosing them and thus guaranteeing a more powerful approach.

Another one being: You can min-max your char for every encounter or zone you want to visit beforehand. By just switching out cybernetics for those that would be the most efficient in a certain stage of the game.
Mutual exclusivity being something bad? Nope. It's a strong concept: Meaningful choices. Tactical play and even strategical play - and you can always alter your choices without regretting any points being wasted on a level up.

And so on.

Cybernetics are really strong as they are right now. For me there is no need to make them OP and thus taking an engaging part out of the game.
More variety in cybernetics and/or combined with downsides on certain cybernetics - yeah, that would be a nice addition. But removing a core concept that makes them interesting in the first place and just turning them into "You have won"-mechanics? Nah. Not needed in my opinion.

[|_| Clyax]

Originally posted by SaD-82:

Originally posted by | Clyax:

3. Keep everything about cybernetics the same, but make them more powerful than mutations because you're so limited with cybernetics compared to mutations.

Thoughts?

My thought:
Cybernetics are more powerful than mutations - for various reasons.

One of them being: You don't have to level them to scale them - they are powerful right from the get go. Some arguably even more powerful than their mutation counterparts.

Another one being: You don't have any delay in using them in their powerful stage. Regarding mutations you either have to specialize for quite some time to be able to survive a huge amount of the game or you end up as jack of all trades and are vulnerable because of that. In contrast: Cybernetics aren't essential, thus giving way more freedom in choosing them and thus guaranteeing a more powerful approach.

Another one being: You can min-max your char for every encounter or zone you want to visit beforehand. By just switching out cybernetics for those that would be the most efficient in a certain stage of the game.
Mutual exclusivity being something bad? Nope. It's a strong concept: Meaningful choices. Tactical play and even strategical play - and you can always alter your choices without regretting any points being wasted on a level up.

And so on.

Cybernetics are really strong as they are right now. For me there is no need to make them OP and thus taking an engaging part out of the game.
More variety in cybernetics and/or combined with downsides on certain cybernetics - yeah, that would be a nice addition. But removing a core concept that makes them interesting in the first place and just turning them into "You have won"-mechanics? Nah. Not needed in my opinion.

What about cybernetics that need to have compute power to level like Cathedras? Those aren't powerful right away.
I'm not against mutual exclusivity. Making cybernetics mutually exclusive because of body part slots isn't a good reason compared to Motorized Treads vs Hyper-elastic Tendons when the former doesn't let you where things on the feet slot.
You bring up a point on being able to swap most of them whenever you want, but that's not enough to justify making them so limited compared to how plentiful you can make mutations.
Cybernetics are underpowered compared to the potential of mutations, not overpowered.

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by | Clyax:

What about cybernetics that need to have compute power to level like Cathedras? Those aren't powerful right away.

Those are usually powerful enough to use up a slot, but maybe not powerful enough to use up their point cost (depending on how much you have) compared to a combo of other stuff you could be using at that time. Being able to boost them is a different kind of progression and mostly a bonus if you are credit rich.

Originally posted by | Clyax:

Cybernetics are underpowered compared to the potential of mutations, not overpowered.

That is definitely not objectively true and mostly looks like that when you start out with true kins, since you get mostly the low level things and probably look for 1 big boost from each, similar to a mutant start. Cybernetics can give you so much potential on top of true kins not even being locked out of mutations (while mutants are locked out of cybernetics) and having higher stats. The fact that you can swap them out so freely already gives them a big bonus over mutations.

E.g. the stat cybernetics + true kins higher stats + true kins higher skill points makes it so easy to take almost any skill you want with little to no commitment and much earlier than most mutants. A mutant would have to use double-muscled or triple-jointed (with their lower stats), level those up and keep then them forever, while a true kin might throw their bionic hands out for giant hands or similar.

Originally posted by | Clyax:

I'm not against mutual exclusivity. Making cybernetics mutually exclusive because of body part slots isn't a good reason compared to Motorized Treads vs Hyper-elastic Tendons when the former doesn't let you where things on the feet slot.

Having to decide between "lots of movement speed but no more shoes" or "small amount of movement speed, but i don't have to commit" is an interesting choice to have, but "extra movement speed or more charge range or more jump range" is too and a true kin might decide to redo their build at basically any time to fit what they want most at that time. Being able to just stack all of that is both an unneeded power boost and make decisions more boring.

[Nihilum]

Cybernetics that can be boosted with Compute Power are generally either powerful enough on their own that a boost is nice to have but not a hard requirement, or are niche cybernetics are will be swapped out as needed. Cybernetics feel good as they are. *Maybe* you should be able to with tinker them like other equipment, but that raises the question of "Won't that make the Tinkering skill mandatory for True Kin characters?"