Thoughts and Observations on IFV's, Infantry, and the Screen Order.

[SaradominWrecksYou]

Note- I have only been playing the game for a week now, playing around 10 single player and PBEM scenarios combined. If what I am about say is already covered in a dev post somewhere, I aplogize and ask to be linked to the post.

The current scenario I am playing is the first US campaign mission as NATO in a PBEM game. I tried to use some of my recon and line infantry units that were mounted in Bradleys as a screen,using the screen order, to locate the enemey lines of advance and force them out of road march formation to buy time for my reinforcements to arrive and set up. I thought the screen order translated to 'shoot and scoot'.

Instead, my infantry platoons decided to hold, shoot, shoot, take fire, shoot, take casualties, then scoot. By the time my platoons decided to scoot, most had lost the majority of their Bradley IFV's; rendering them unable to effectively fall back to another location. Futhermore, I noticed a trend as the battle progressed where IFV's with dismounted infantry would try to hold their fire until in autocannon range, possibly in an attempt for the platoon to hide, instead of firing their TOW's right away.

Three unit types do; however, properly execute the screen order correctly: HQ's, Recee units without infantry, and IFV's that have no infantry attached. These units either shoot immideately at max range (IFV's without infantry); try to flee at the first sign of the enemy, shooting may or not be included depending on the subunits (HQ's); or reliablely do both (recee).

Is the above correct, do different unit types screen differently?

Currently, I do see one way to 'create' my own screen order at the start of the game not involving the screen order. If I gave an assault move to a secondary position with a delay I can emulate a screen order. Also, though I am less sure this will work, if mechanized infantry unit with IFV's has any type of move order; the fact that the infantry will be mounted will remove the delay to the firing of IFV's when the infantry is dismounted, in the screen posture or not.

Has anyone else ran into similar issues? How did you fix them? Are my observations about IFV's and their interactions with infantry even correct? Thanks for reading, any comments are appreciated.

[baddoggs]

One thing to remember, This is more of a sim than a game.
In the "real" world, When an officer commands a unit, say
1st Ptn of Bravo Coy to displace and move to grid Blah blah.
It takes time to sort yourself out and get ready to move.
Mounted Inf tend to take even longer than on foot as they have
a vehicle to prepare.
If you are actually under fire, you may NEVER be able to break c
ontact without risking a total loss. If you try to run while under fire
You WILL BE KILLED if the enemy can see you.
This is not Command and Conquer where you get a crisp "roger"
and move straight away. You have to plan your moves way in advance
and usually moving units in heavy contact will get them killed even
quicker than if you left them in place. First thought should be provide support
and/or re enforcement. Leaving should be a LAST option.
If you DID plan to move then YOUR timing is at fault not the game.
This game is increadably good at portraying Lag (if you like) that
you get issuing orders through a chain of command.
Also if the unit HQ is out of range there will be a further delay.
Moral and supply are also HUGE factors in determining how
fast a unit will respond to orders. If the unit has been in heavy
contact its vehicles may have damage or low fuel this will
also influance how long it can take to respond to orders.

I recommend Good planning and don't order a withdrawal under heavy contact.
If you commit to a stand up fight make sure your logistics and timings are sorted.
Also make sure the troops are supported and you have re-enforcements available.

As far as APC's/IFV's are concerned, unit structure is very inportant.
For example, If the vehicles are "organic" to the unit* they will organise a lot
quicker than a unit that does not have "organic" assets.
The reason for this is simple. Organic generally means the vehicles are
a part of the Inf unit and as auch they recive more training with vehicles
than those that don't.

*Cav Units Generally have there vehicles as a PERMINANT part
of that Troop/Squadren. Most outher Inf are not like this and
transport is provided as needed. This can create long delays at
times as the vehicles will often recive outher taskings and may
not be avaiable right away.

Hope this helps.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Hi. I'm one of the devs for this game. My background is 17 years US Army infantry. First, an observation about your observations.

Your intent for your screening force is more of a covering force mission than a screen mission. Screen *mission* is about surveillance. Covering Force is about disrupting an enemy attack. It also sounds like you're wanting to do either a Delay or Defensive in Depth sort of thing. You have already figured out how to do that - make a move order and delay it way into the future.

Now as to the Screen movement order, that tells a unit to be prepared to move and to displace when the enemy gets too close. It simply responds to range and that range depends on what type if unit it is. Line units (tank, mech, inf, engineer) let the enemy get to 2 hexes before displacing. For Recce units, that is 5 hexes. HQs is 8 hexes and arty is 9.

Now, the Screen displacement is not an immediate trigger. At some point, the unit set to Screen will do its "Think" cycle, evaluate the situation, and decide it is supposed to displace (if it can).

Another thing you should understand, and this is something that is being refined in the next version of the game, is that your units don't always shoot at the target you think they should. The AI at this point is greedy for Victory Points. When a unit shoots, it looks at what it can see and figures out the best payoff target. This is in terms of VPs and likelyhood of kill. So a unit will sometimes shoot at a lower threat target, to its own detriment. This also is getting a tune-up in the next version.

[SaradominWrecksYou]

Thanks for the comments guys. The information about when different unit types move away from the enemy when in a screen posture was very helpful. Infact, my understanding of what the screen posture did seems to have been completely off. In my latest PBEM game, I set up some of my units with a very short delay order which I think will capture what I was trying to do the first time.

[LineOfDeparture]

@ baddoggs

sorry mate, this is wrong on so many levels.

Order Delay is FCs favourite excuse for everything. Yours as well it seems.

"One thing to remember, This is more of a sim than a game."

It is a game, and does a pretty bad job at simulating.

"It takes time to sort yourself out and get ready to move.
Mounted Inf tend to take even longer than on foot as they have
a vehicle to prepare."

OP ordered them to conduct a retrograde of some sort/Screen/Cover/Guard (IMG Pointed out the doctrinal specifics). This is preplanned. Do you really think that units are being placed in the security line and then are completely surpirised that they are supposed to withdraw at some point? Do you really think every withdraw to an alternative BP is ordered individually by higher echelon?

This has nothing to do with orders delay, if anything than with how long it took them to remount.

"If you are actually under fire, you may NEVER be able to break c
ontact without risking a total loss. If you try to run while under fire
You WILL BE KILLED if the enemy can see you."

Disengagements are dangerous. that it is NEVER (sic) possible to break contact if the enemy sees you is wrong.

"First thought should be provide support
and/or re enforcement. "

Why would you ever want to reinforce a withdrawing force? This is as unpractical as it gets. Counterattacking or blocking would be way more practical, if need to be, but certainly not for a single plt in the SL for every withdrawl. The point of a screen is to get info with a small footprint. It would defeat the purpose if you committ even more just to support every single Cav Scout.

"Leaving should be a LAST option."

It. is. a. Screen.


"If you DID plan to move then YOUR timing is at fault not the game."

There are a million things the game does a horrible job at. When I find the time I will write a review here. But you should tone down your fanboyism. Orders Delay and the C2 system is one of the big flaws, it is a miricle to be how any sim fans have been convinced by this.


"Cav Units Generally have there vehicles as a PERMINANT part
of that Troop/Squadren. Most outher Inf are not like this and
transport is provided as needed. This can create long delays at
times as the vehicles will often recive outher taskings and may
not be avaiable right away."

Unorganic transports are not the norm in the mid 80s, or in any other post WWII Period in western europe.

OP had a legitimate concern and to shoot it down with "FPC is da uber sim" does absolutely not do it justice, sorry.

Having said that, I wish the devs good fortune with Southern Storm: Hope they will be able to produce a sim worthy as successor of TacOps 4.0 and Co.

Cheers

[dochiq]

@ Fulgrim:
I have to agree with you. The orders system is a flaw in this game.

I understand that it will take some time to get an order through. Accepted. But why does the unit go instantly into the "Move" stance the very second I order it to move (even if I order a delay)? Shouldn't it stay in "Hold" as long as the order takes to arrives? So it gets killed because it's in "Move" for about 30 to 60 minutes until it finally starts to move (e.g.: found the reverse gear in the tank?). Great.
How do I have to picture that process? They can feel in some telepathic way my decision to let them move out, so they leave their defensive position to wait in the open for the order to arrive?

Even if there is infantry in foxholes: When the order gets through they get told: "Move out to the APCs in 10 minutes" and yes, they will be vulnerable when they finally move out, but until then there is no reason why they should lose their defensive or dug-in status!

And I also can accept that it's not easy for a dismounted unit to get all the guys together and into the APCs or IFVs. But why does it take just as long for a tank platoon? They are all aboard, they can move out in a moment's notice after the order gets through. That's what tanks do, that's what they are built for. They have a reverse gear, they have a smoke discharger, they CAN disengage. Ever heard of the german term "vorbereitete Wechselstellung" (prepared alternate position)? Tanks don't sit as static bunkers and fight until they are killed.

And for the screening: Let's say we have a tank platoon. 3 to 5 tanks which are ordered to withdraw if the enemy comes close, let's say: comes over that hill or passes that village. They can scout in advance (covered) routes of retreat, they can prepare, they can arrange a signal to withdraw and so on. 2 Minutes after sighting the enemy they can be on their way - depending on the terrain, I give you that. Or the commander can order in advance: If the enemy appears (trigger!), shoot it out with him for five minutes, then get the hell out of there. Not possible in this game.

I really like that game, but this whole orders and withdrawal system has to be revised. In the Battle of Waterloo it was easier for Wellington to maneuver his forces around the battlefield than it is in this game.

[HermanHum]

Originally posted by StG2_dochiq:

@ Fulgrim:
I have to agree with you. The orders system is a flaw in this game.

[snip]

I really like that game, but this whole orders and withdrawal system has to be revised. In the Battle of Waterloo it was easier for Wellington to maneuver his forces around the battlefield than it is in this game.

Virtually EVERYONE has tried to tell these developers how ridiculous their orders delay system is, to no avail.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/330720/discussions/0/490123938445698884/#c496880203077330263

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/dG-Cvd9Hq-Y/6RRY8lNyCQAJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/dG-Cvd9Hq-Y%5B26-50%5D

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/dG-Cvd9Hq-Y/BYSKmy7SCQAJ

I'm certain a developer will soon tell you that your only choice is to throw away another $50+ for their next version in hopes of them fixing this idiotic delay mechanism. Those who cannot find ways to cope with the ridiculous delays simply stop playing. The money you wasted on this game is gone forever.

[LineOfDeparture]

StG2_

Did I say something that makes you belief I disagree with you? Or did you wamt to reiterate, because I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said. Except that tanks roll out imediatly, I mean the PltCdr is allowed his 3 minutes of sorting out as well ;-)

[Cap'n Darwin]

As noted here and more so over in the Matrix forum we are specifically working on improving the fidelity of Command Delay to better reflect the range of control. We are also revamping orders and adding a much needed Withdrawal order. Other improvements such as more control over setting some SOP parameters will help players determine how they want units to react. This should solve most of the screening issues by adding flexibility to tailor standoff by unit tyoe/composition. We are working on much more as well taking both the positive and negative feedback we see in the various forums. Thanks for taking the time to post your comments.

[LineOfDeparture]

Although I have been unsatisfied with the game many times, I appreciate your relentless drive for improvement. Good fortune on the next installment.

[Cap'n Darwin]

Thanks Fulgrim. We do listen and look to improve a number of things as we go.