Necromancer Feedback

[Draken]

Hi, I just returned to KeeperRL after a few years, checking out the new stuff. I like Necromancers, so I started a campaign as one. I really like the game and it's a ton of fun, but I also noticed a few things that I think could be improved or that are currently frustrating.

1: My biggest problem is the incredible desire of my units to drown themself in any water tile deep enough that is on the way. Lava too. I currently have 20 skeleton warriors, 10 vampire warriors and 3 vampire nobles, all on skeleton wolfs and all with swarming balsam. And anytime I try to move the group through a path not at least three tiles wide and with deep water nearby some of my vampires or skeletons will drown themself. I just spent what felt like an hour slowly moving all 33 units manually through a dungeon because it had water tiles next to the entrance. After getting everyone past the water tile I switched back to leader mode and moved deeper into the dungeon. Only to have two vampire warriors drown because there was a second entrance to the dungeon behind a river with deep water and they turned around to drown themself in the water I painstakingly had them avoid before.
I also have a river below my base with a few deep water tiles. Anytime I come how with an expedition group from somewhere below me on the map I have to start a second expedition to somewhere above me on the map. That way my troops show up in a spot that doesn't require crossing the river. If I don't do that I will lose units to drowning.
It's probably more pronounced because I use such big groups, but still, the units should know to avoid deadly tiles they know about.

2: It's very difficult to see which unit is currently active. At least when you are outside with units that have the 'source of darkness' trait, ride wolves and have swarm buff sparkles around them. Finding the blinking ring of the currently active unit when you have 10+ units next to each other is very difficult and takes a couple of seconds in this instance. I also sometimes think I have another unit active and move a different unit instead. Using the mouse-over unit you find the one unit that has the chat command but not the attack one can help, but is also not the fastest.

3: Master Embalming is kind of a let down. The best of the best balsams are just some damage and defense boosts? And only ones applying to specific situations or enemies? Don't get me wrong, they aren't bad and can be quite helpful in certain situations. I just wish that that technology had more exiting effects inside as well. Permanent speed, regeneration, a blink ability, a one time resurrection, or something similar.

4: Mounts do not get affected by area of effect buff spells. My poor skelly dogs don't get buffed by my vampire's mass defense/damage boost. At least buffs spells do not show up in their trait list or get added to the displayed damage and defense. Mounts also don't count for swarmer bonus, so a dismounted cavalry force will have double the swarmer bonus.

5: The "additional Head" balsam should give units with intrinsic head attacks either a multi-attack or a damage boost to their existing attack.

6: The archer training bonus balsam is very lacking compared to the greater ranged damage one and even to the lesser ranged damage. Not only does it require time to train, it only is better than the lesser one if the archer has at least 10 combat experience. Or 12 with the greater damage. Both the melee and spell training bonus are significant better because they raise two values instead of just the damage, making it an actual choice between getting a pure damage/defense boost and a training boost.

7: Why can't units with head injuries wear necklaces? Units with injured arms can still hold weapons. To clarify, I am not talking about units that have lost their heads, but ones that only have injured it.

8: Unit feedback:
a) Skeleton Wolf. Love them, though they are a bit frail. They also only have one balsam slot. I wish they had at least one more but currently I don't think anything beats swarming on them. Adding additional arms to them also does nothing, which is sad.

b) Zombie workers (normal zombies and artisans): Those are great. The ability to customize your workers with balsams is great. You can get slow diggers with a digging skill of 52. Or not slow haulers that can go outside and carry unlimited items.

c) Zombie Mage: They honestly seem kind of useless to me. If you want to use them in actual battle outside you need to use 2 out of 3 balsam slots to remove the vulnerability to sunlight and slow. And their spellbook isn't that great for a Necromancer either. The two mass buffs are ok, but not that great. The blindness spell gets blocked by allies. And both summon fly and animate corps summons meatshields, something that the Necromancer doesn't really need. Raising a few dozens skeleton warriors or wolfs is very easy and cheap. The flies and corpses mostly get in the way.

d) Skeleton Warrior: Good cheap fodder combat unit. Not having to worry about slow or vulnerable to sunlight really opens up some experimentation room even with just three balsams. Also can ride Skeleton Wolves giving them 2 moves per turn.

e) Skeleton Archer: They are okay. They are the only ranged unit but they do fulfill that nice nicely. Can be emergency customized against specific threats thanks to balsams.

f) Vampire Brute: Cheap flying vampire unit that can heal in combat. Good when you don't have good equipment or gold for balsams at hand. No complains, I am German, so that's a compliment itself. :D

g) Vampire Warrior: The good combat stuff. Access to items, self healing, 5 balsams, melee training, riders. Love them.

h) Vampire Noble: Everything you ever wanted. Nice illusion spells, inherent flying and darkness, self healing, 5 balsams and can climb on wolves. They are also crafters for your Morgue and Laboratory. They can kind of do everything. From staying in base and making undead armies, to buffing your troops, to rivaling vampire warriors in melee. 6/5. If only the Keeper was one or could become one.

i) Keeper: Speaking of which, can't go outside without burning. No meele training. A kind of useless spell book. Kind of underwhelming really. And once you got Vampire Nobles the only use the Keeper has is whipping units into working faster.

Haven't unlocked the other units yet, so no feedback for them.

Thanks a ton for the game, I only write feedback to games I enjoy and feel invested in.

[DJLawLaw]

Your first problem is taking units with missing heads- or possibly units riding mounts that are missing heads. Anything that has a missing/damaged head will blindly walk into lava or water. There's a mod called "Stitch it Together" or something similar that gives your Keeper an ability to mend undead he's next to: this helps fix that problem.

[Draken]

@DJLawLaw:
I just tested it again with a one tile wide stone bridge over lava with healthy Vampire Warriors and Skeleton Wolves.

Result: Some of the Vampire Warriors still decided that lava is a great substance to step into.

It almost looked to me as if they tried to overtake another unit on the bridge by going "around" diagonally with their two steps each turn: The first step of the turn you step diagonally up into the lava, the second one you diagonally step down back on the bridge. Of course they never got to the second step.

It also might be an issues with bridges being claimed territory, causing the riders to trying to dismount into the lava. But I don't think that is what happened here, as both rider and steed burned up.

Back to the feedback:

8: Unit feedback

j) Skeleton King: An absolute beast of an undead, starting out with 10 damage and 10 defense and can be given 199 upgrades, most being worth 1 extra damage or defense. It can even fly if you give it limbs from flying creatures. So the creature itself is great. The big problem is the upgrade system.
The first problem: For a fully upgraded Skeleton King you need to click 199 times. There is no way to select multiple upgrades with one click.
The second problem: The limbs you can select don't specify what they do. There are only skulls and bones. You have no way to know if a limb is a leg, arm or wing. Just as you don't know if a limb gives 1 defense or 1 attack.
The third problem: You will get tons of different limb options that are all doing the same thing. I wish the limbs would just get sorted accordingly to what exactly they do. All normal skulls into one pile, all legs into another, all wings into a third, and all arms into the last pile.
The fourth problem: It's really inconsistent trying to get limbs. If you shoot a vulture to death with archers you will likely only get a corpse. Which is great for raising your undeads. But somehow you are unable to take apart the cadaver and get two wings out of it for your Skeleton King. So if you want specific limbs you have to use your troops with cutting weapons and hope that they cut of the right thing during battle.

k) Slasher: A bit underwhelming. It's a mount so let's compare it with the Skeleton Wolf. A Slasher has 22 more damage than a Skeleton Wolf as well as 2 more balsam slots. Sadly it also comes with a few disadvantages. First is a vulnerability to sunlight, basically removing one of the upgrade slots. It also doesn't have the fast trait. So while they offer one more balsam slot and a bit more attack, they aren't actually harder to hit and will slow your army down if you are used to the speed of the wolves. Because of that I don't really consider them an upgrade, but more of a more expensive sidegrade instead.

l) Juggernaut: It has more stats then the Vampire Warrior. To be precise, 5 more training, 4 more defense and 7 more damage, which adds up to 9 more defense and 12 more damage. In return you have two less balsam slots. Each of those could be used for an increase to the melee training limit. One of those balsams gives 3 damage and 3 defense. So the actual stat difference is only 3 defense and 6 damage. In return you lose the ability to ride as well as the vampires self healing, making it not worth it in my book. Maybe the Juggernaut has additional hidden advantages such as more health, but if so they aren't apparent to the player. So I don't plan on using them. I would really appreciate if they would receive some kind of buff that would give them their own niche in the necromancers army.

m) Zombie King: This is basically exactly the same as a Skeleton King. With two exceptions: They have 5 more defense and damage as well as a vulnerability to sunlight. So if you want them for base defense or can ensure that they only go out at night they are better. But I personally prefer the Skeleton King.

n) Bone Dragon: Awesome. High base stats plus training, 7 balsams, flying. Worth using a phylactery on.

9: Why do vampires lack intrinsic leg and arm attacks?

10: I wish there was a uniform system for creatures. That way the Vampire Nobles that have all the crafting upgrades don't snatch up the adamantium equipment from the fighting versions. Or at least a way to restrict equipment for individual units. Having to force an equip and then lock all of it is a lot of clicks.

11: I wish there was a template system for undead. Some way to save your favorite balsam loadouts so that you can easily reuse them. The necromancer seems to be aimed at having a ton of fragile, replaceable minions, but the actual replacing process is a bit too tedious to be enjoyable.

12: Bug: Undead with missing arms can still wield weapons and shields. They first drop them on getting injured, but then are able to pick them back up later.

13: I wish there was a way to either fix up your undeads, gladly with a cost attached, or a way to quickly dispose and replace a minion. You have to select a damaged minion, force it to drop all it's equipment, banish it, then go to the morgue and order a new one and add the balsams. Oh and have enough of said balsams. For a better Necromancer experience I would wish for a "Destroy Undead" button similar to banish, but it would simply kill the undead. Then a way to set production targets for balsams, so that you always have the ones available that you want. Probably would also be nice for normal equipment. And last a template system for the undeads like mentioned in point 11.

[Jetrel]

Yes to 3 and 5 and the unit variation is pretty lacking. The top tier units are pretty bad too with the only exception being the skele king.

[Yes, I have a Mic.]

"anytime I try to move the group through a path not at least three tiles wide and with deep water nearby some of my vampires or *skeletons* will drown themself."
I can't help but feel a creature without lungs requiring oxygen is something of an oversight.