How'd it get so hard?

[joemama1512]

Something happened recently because the game is impossible to beat lately. I show up with a big army at the final boss and their legendary humanoids are always godlike. 66 attack, 74 defense. It doesnt matter how many archers and wizards are spamming at them. They laugh. My own weak 55 atk/def minions are useless and won't scratch them. My 70/70 keeper OUGHT to be able to hurt them, but no. Well, sometimes they get dinked but then regenerate back to 100% the next turn with nobody else around them. No clue how.

The game used to be pretty doable, even soloable with a strong melee keeper but right now these godlike invincible units pretty much make it pointless to play. Why bother with a big horde when one godlike badass just crushes everything with ease?

[La Charge]

I love this game but this mechanic fells the most frustrating for me. You're playing and you feel strong enough to beat bosses, so you attack them and get totally rekt. And then you realise you played it wrong, but the game is not explaining anything to you.
I didn't beat the game yet, but i belive you have to get strong unit early on and feed him lesser bosses to make him stronger to complete the game. But it feels so frustrating when you see your army can't even scratch enemies and i belive a lot of people can stop playing at this moment.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by joemama1512:

Something happened recently because the game is impossible to beat lately. I show up with a big army at the final boss and their legendary humanoids are always godlike. 66 attack, 74 defense. It doesnt matter how many archers and wizards are spamming at them. They laugh. My own weak 55 atk/def minions are useless and won't scratch them. My 70/70 keeper OUGHT to be able to hurt them, but no. Well, sometimes they get dinked but then regenerate back to 100% the next turn with nobody else around them. No clue how.

The game used to be pretty doable, even soloable with a strong melee keeper but right now these godlike invincible units pretty much make it pointless to play. Why bother with a big horde when one godlike badass just crushes everything with ease?

That sounds normal, I get that a lot. If your keeper is the knight keeper, then 70/70 is too weak. You should be armed with adamantium gear head to shoe, and so many titles that your screen can't show the entire list. You'll have close to 90/90, more than enough to krump their legendary humanoids. Also, bring tons of harpies and goblin wizards, every attack has a chance to deal critical damage. Also, bring your own legendary humanoids, although you want to gear them out with adamantium equipment and titles as well. (Some legendary humanoids can't get titles for some reason.)

Also, if you can level up and gear up a werewolf, it can possibly do tons of damage to the legendary humanoids. Werewolf needs to have ambush, ambush seems to trigger critical damage if successful (press H to hide the werewolf when it is standing in a bush or tree). Assuming the werewolf has more attack than legendary humanoid's defense, it can damage the legendary humanoid's limb with a battleaxe (it has a chance to chop off limbs).

[joemama1512]

Thanks for the advice. I pretty much used my Keeper to kill basically everything up to this point so I have about all the titles I can get, without say digging to level 50 down or whatever. I did have full adamantium gear and I did feel like my 70/70 stats were a bit on the weak side but couldnt explain why.

I had my own legendary humanoids outfitted with admantium and didnt help. They got worn down. For some reason the enemy one kept rematerializing back to 100% (from 83% or so) every single turn even when nothing else was nearby.

I have read other tactics I need to look into. I believe there is a way to use battleaxes to chop off limbs even when you can't do any damage. Poison attacks would be useful too possibly.

Never tried the Ambush strategy. I did have tons of harpies and like 20 maxed wizards but they never DID anything. It all just bounced right off.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by joemama1512:

Thanks for the advice. I pretty much used my Keeper to kill basically everything up to this point so I have about all the titles I can get, without say digging to level 50 down or whatever. I did have full adamantium gear and I did feel like my 70/70 stats were a bit on the weak side but couldnt explain why.

I had my own legendary humanoids outfitted with admantium and didnt help. They got worn down. For some reason the enemy one kept rematerializing back to 100% (from 83% or so) every single turn even when nothing else was nearby.

I have read other tactics I need to look into. I believe there is a way to use battleaxes to chop off limbs even when you can't do any damage. Poison attacks would be useful too possibly.

Never tried the Ambush strategy. I did have tons of harpies and like 20 maxed wizards but they never DID anything. It all just bounced right off.

Were you fighting the enemy wizard keeper? I've not been playing evil knight keeper since the update so I wonder if you went up against the enemy wizard keeper, his legendary humanoids are some of the most OP enemies in the game. But I think once you killed them, they won't return again. Same with your own legendary humanoids, once you lose them they're gone forever.

[joemama1512]

Yes it was the enemy wizard with his insanely OP legendaries of uber-healing/invincibility.

[di eshor ribly]

It's mostly automatic to set up, but make sure if your Keeper has access to the poetry table that you build one and allow them to go unleash their inner emo. Think of all the awful poetry that your Keeper produces as... anti-titles for your enemies. They debuff the enemy's attack/defense ratings and may turn your invincible foe into something that your regular scrubs can hack apart. Sometimes your keeper will accidentally summon a temporary friendly demon (they die after 500 turns or so) that you can use as a disposable shock trooper.

Most of the Legendaries are fire resistant, but poison usually works on them. Make some Potions of Poison to throw at the tougher ones. Infernium weapons may or may not be helpful with the Burning debuff based on the enemy's fire resist. If you can find some way to apply the Acid debuff it will also lower their defense.

Swarm tactics help against high defense targets too. Each unit that surrounds an enemy and attacks them each turn gets a stacking debuff for the enemy. The issue when fighting a stronger enemy with a swarm of weaklings is having the swarm survive to reach their positions and attack together.

Example: A 10 defense unit is surrounded by eight enemies. The 8th unit that attacks the defender will be fighting a (roughly) 2-3 defense enemy instead. The shield's parry buff reduces the defense loss from being surrounded and attacked by multiple enemies at once.

[joemama1512]

Are you saying that the solution to my problems is to make sure my keeper can properly trash talk the enemy with prose? Holy crap, that is insane! I will have to try that.

[di eshor ribly]

Originally posted by joemama1512:

Are you saying that the solution to my problems is to make sure my keeper can properly trash talk the enemy with prose? Holy crap, that is insane! I will have to try that.

It won't be your "silver bullet", but it does help a lot. Especially when used in addition to other debuffs. Sometimes 1-2 defense points can mean the difference between "nothing is working" and "It's just a flesh wound, come back and I'll bite your kneecaps off!".

[funkmonster7]

Another "brute force" strategy is train up some mummies, train their fighting skills up to 55/55, and then net them some titles and experience, and also gear them up with adamantium equipment. Mummies are nigh unstoppable like that. I never got to the point where I needed mummies to get the job done, but I think experience cap is determined by the minion's training level cap. Which means mummies might be able to get to level 55 (even your highest level goblin warrior can only get to level 9, and your keeper can get to level 12 if I'm not mistaken). On top of that, with an amulet of regeneration your mummies can regenerate health if it gets a limb chopped off (the only way to kill it by this point, other than "heart pierced by arrow" OHKO critical hit).

Only downside to mummies is they are slow as ♥♥♥♥, and you must attack the enemy base at night, or sunlight will OHKO them. There is one piece of armor you can equip on the mummy to make it immune to sunlight damage, but it's only one specific piece of equipment you can only craft by killing a specific dragon or something...

[GuiltyGun]

I've yet to have an army that can kill the fire demon. That boss is a straight up run ender.

Its early access so I know balance needs to be tweaked still. But DAMN it feels bad for your 6 hour dungeon run to just.... die without even a chance of victory.

I had 70+ dudes too. But the super fire swords aren't really useful vs fire demons.

[funkmonster7]

What fire demon?

[Veikr]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

What fire demon?

Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame.

[GuiltyGun]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

What fire demon?

After digging down to floor 22ish there is a Fire Demon with an army of goblin archers and trolls. I think its a pure tip of the hat to LotR.

However, I've never beaten them. I've killed the demon (twice!) but the army still crushed what I had left and killed my keeper. I've beaten the game on the surface several times, so the fire demon is optional.

Its the hardest fight in the game, to my knowledge (I have no idea if something stronger is beneath them, but I hope to god there isn't).

Even with a fire resist ring on EVERY single soldier I had, they still just get murdered by that guy.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by joemama1512:

Something happened recently because the game is impossible to beat lately. I show up with a big army at the final boss and their legendary humanoids are always godlike. 66 attack, 74 defense. It doesnt matter how many archers and wizards are spamming at them. They laugh. ...

There are two Big Things I've learned about KeeperRL combat.

1) Making overpowered single units and keeping them alive is A Good Idea ™. They're the big DPS guys for the uber-enemies you meet.

2) Knowing what you're up against and how they're countering your attempts to get rid of them.

Other than that, making sure everyone is leveled, equipped with the best gear, potions, magically thingies, Poems (Yes, bad poetry that effects morale in a radius) and understanding the debuff system as well as certain effects from normal weapons ALL adds into this. So, make this point 3). :)

Point two is hard. For instance, I forgot Zombies in a big group are potentially an existential risk due to that group defense mod trait they get by default. (Forget the name atm.) That ended my last playthrough despite having stomped my way around the map. Dug too deep, I guess, without glancing at the Wiki... I could have continued and rebuilt, but it would have been a slog.

Axes chop off limbs just as a natural effect of the weapon. Hammers... do something too. Getting as many attack types on that nasty target is usually a bonus, no matter what it takes. Harpies can Blind/instagimp with one hit, too, on some mobs. (The Woodelves have their own special as well, IIRC.)

For some enemies, there is only "one way" to take them down effectively without praying to RNGeebus. If there's a tactical shortfall in KeeperRL, that'd be it. You can meet something that you can't deal with....

For that reason, i never use my Keeper as a casual combatant. I level them up, here and there, especially during Raids, but for all other actions they generally stay at home. Now, that can be a bad strategy as the Keeper can potentially be the most powerful unit in the field. But, it often helps me recover from mistakes without having to start a new playthrough. :)

[di eshor ribly]

Tossing in the extra info for Morkonan's post here:

1) Zombie Swarmer trait - adds +1 attack/defense for every other Swarmer in range.
2) Hammers have the "Collapse" proc (destroys legs, lowers mobility/defense)
3) Harpy Eye Shot and Dryad Heart Shot. Both insta-kill "chance on shot" abilities.
4) I only use certain Keepers for combat, depending on the mod or playthrough. Dig Realm's Platinum Dragon is a combat beast, your standard wizard Keeper less so. The upcoming Necromancer is practically useless in combat (no combat training, have a phylactery to save their life when they inevitably die is your only option for the necro). Gnomes are a no-go, so is the Goblin King. The rest are hit or miss on combat effectiveness.