Possible Women Crew members

[gspectre]

Just wondering, if there is a new B-17 Sim made, like the last one, I know women never flew combat in them, only as shuttle pilots to fly the bombers from 1 location to another BUT what if the new Sim randomly picked a woman as the Co-Pilot. Also , like other members, be able to move to other stations and help other crewmen?

Any thoughts on this?

[gspectre]

Thank you. I feel the same way and I would like as many people to enjoy that opportunity. It's just an idea that I wanted to pitch.

[Chris]

Keep it historically accurate! There are plenty of games that make it "Fair" for all. Lets leave the SIM games to SIMULATE what it was like.

[gspectre]

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Keep it historically accurate! There are plenty of games that make it "Fair" for all. Lets leave the SIM games to SIMULATE what it was like.

Your view is sort of the same view I was thinking, then I thought about the idea of just the random co-pilot to sort of represent all the women that did fly the B-17's during WW2 (just not into combat), just in case any females might want to try the next version.

[Chris]

Originally posted by gspectre:

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Keep it historically accurate! There are plenty of games that make it "Fair" for all. Lets leave the SIM games to SIMULATE what it was like.

Your view is sort of the same view I was thinking, then I thought about the idea of just the random co-pilot to sort of represent all the women that did fly the B-17's during WW2 (just not into combat), just in case any females might want to try the next version.

I get your thinking, but im sure any female playing a game of this sort is into history and understands the context. While im all for being equal a game based in WW2 that is trying to be historically accurate should be that, accurate.

[HansGruber]

That's gonna be a nope for me bro.

Keep history historically accurate, if you please.

[gspectre]

Originally posted by Major Hans:

That's gonna be a nope for me bro.

Keep history historically accurate, if you please.

I know none flew in combat but women did pilot and Co-Pilot the B-17's while serving with the Woman's Air Corps.

Just seems odd that with 12 Aircraft carrying 10 Crew members each for 120 Crew members total, seems no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot.

[Chris]

Originally posted by gspectre:

Originally posted by Major Hans:

That's gonna be a nope for me bro.

Keep history historically accurate, if you please.

I know none flew in combat but women did pilot and Co-Pilot the B-17's while serving with the Woman's Air Corps.

Just seems odd that with 12 Aircraft carrying 10 Crew members each for 120 Crew members total, seems no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot.

Again at least IMHO its pretty simple why "no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot." I'd bet 95%+ of the people here want a HISTORICAL game. Not a video game social experience, this isn't Battlefield or Call of Duty. When i am flying in VR i want to look around and see 9 other young scared men between the ages of 18-30 most that having never been out of their state nevermind their Country, now flying over France or Germany taking the fight right back to Hitler.

There is plenty of material on Women's part in World War Two. It is greatly acknowledged, BUT they didn't fly combat missions over Germany. So there is no reason to be included in the aircraft.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude but I don't see what the issue is with this, it is just plain and very simple history, and we're not here to change that just to "include" women in something they didn't take part in.

If they decided to "open" the airfield up, where you could walk around a realistic WW2 bomberfield, I'm sure no one would have an issue if they included NPCs maybe including women nurses in the hospital or other roles they actually were used in. But again they didn't fly Combat Missions in real life so they have no place flying them in this **historically accurate simulator game**.

[gspectre]

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Originally posted by gspectre:

I know none flew in combat but women did pilot and Co-Pilot the B-17's while serving with the Woman's Air Corps.

Just seems odd that with 12 Aircraft carrying 10 Crew members each for 120 Crew members total, seems no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot.

Again at least IMHO its pretty simple why "no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot." I'd bet 95%+ of the people here want a HISTORICAL game. Not a video game social experience, this isn't Battlefield or Call of Duty. When i am flying in VR i want to look around and see 9 other young scared men between the ages of 18-30 most that having never been out of their state nevermind their Country, now flying over France or Germany taking the fight right back to Hitler.

There is plenty of material on Women's part in World War Two. It is greatly acknowledged, BUT they didn't fly combat missions over Germany. So there is no reason to be included in the aircraft.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude but I don't see what the issue is with this, it is just plain and very simple history, and we're not here to change that just to "include" women in something they didn't take part in.

If they decided to "open" the airfield up, where you could walk around a realistic WW2 bomberfield, I'm sure no one would have an issue if they included NPCs maybe including women nurses in the hospital or other roles they actually were used in. But again they didn't fly Combat Missions in real life so they have no place flying them in this **historically accurate simulator game**.

WOW, you make it sound like women should not even be allowed to even try this SIM. Seriously, should MPS put on the package "NO WOMEN ALLOWED TO PLAY FOR HISTORICAL REASONS"?

I get your point (and I know), that there were none back then but if a female should decide to fly the B-17 (or B-24 now), you don't even want them to have the option to even fly as a female in any position.

I guess if one should try to join your Aircraft in Multi-Player VR, they should expect to get a NO.

That I find sad.

[Chris]

Originally posted by gspectre:

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Again at least IMHO its pretty simple why "no one will accept even 1 female Co-Pilot." I'd bet 95%+ of the people here want a HISTORICAL game. Not a video game social experience, this isn't Battlefield or Call of Duty. When i am flying in VR i want to look around and see 9 other young scared men between the ages of 18-30 most that having never been out of their state nevermind their Country, now flying over France or Germany taking the fight right back to Hitler.

There is plenty of material on Women's part in World War Two. It is greatly acknowledged, BUT they didn't fly combat missions over Germany. So there is no reason to be included in the aircraft.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude but I don't see what the issue is with this, it is just plain and very simple history, and we're not here to change that just to "include" women in something they didn't take part in.

If they decided to "open" the airfield up, where you could walk around a realistic WW2 bomberfield, I'm sure no one would have an issue if they included NPCs maybe including women nurses in the hospital or other roles they actually were used in. But again they didn't fly Combat Missions in real life so they have no place flying them in this **historically accurate simulator game**.

WOW, you make it sound like women should not even be allowed to even try this SIM. Seriously, should MPS put on the package "NO WOMEN ALLOWED TO PLAY FOR HISTORICAL REASONS"?

I get your point (and I know), that there were none back then but if a female should decide to fly the B-17 (or B-24 now), you don't even want them to have the option to even fly as a female in any position.

I guess if one should try to join your Aircraft in Multi-Player VR, they should expect to get a NO.

That I find sad.

Of course females can play the game(I do see where you might take that as me saying they shouldn't, which was bad wording on my part and i am sorry for that really bad wording), but again im not trying to be insensitive, but no if they want to play a Historically Accurate Bomber Simulator in which zero females took part in they can play a male role just like everyone else.

[Commander Freedom]

You mean the 1000 women that were accepted in WASP? let's cater to the 0.1%
How many women will play this sim?

Stop it.

[gspectre]

Well, at least I won't care if some lady wants to enjoy this sim and choose to look like one. I guess if there are any female characters, you guys will be saving your money. Thank you for your pride.

Then or now, I don't care who I serve next to as long as they can do the job. In this scenario, I was just asking about a co-pilot.

Just saying "no" would be okay but the sexist answers just make me hope they are in the Sim.

Just curious, of the entire back catalog of MPS Sims, are you guys against women playing any of them as well since IRL none of the combat rolls would have women in them, except if they are from the Russian side.

[Chris]

Originally posted by gspectre:

Well, at least I won't care if some lady wants to enjoy this sim and choose to look like one. I guess if there are any female characters, you guys will be saving your money. Thank you for your pride.

Then or now, I don't care who I serve next to as long as they can do the job. In this scenario, I was just asking about a co-pilot.

Just saying "no" would be okay but the sexist answers just make me hope they are in the Sim.

Just curious, of the entire back catalog of MPS Sims, are you guys against women playing any of them as well since IRL none of the combat rolls would have women in them, except if they are from the Russian side.

Well, first of all, I'm so sorry i triggered you since that's quite obvious.
Please point out where any of the comments were "Sexist" since i can't find a single one. Additionally, being a "Co-Pilot" has nothing to do with my answer, the crew member could have been the Pilot, ENG, or a gunner for all i care. What i am saying is that once again, this is a SIM depicting bombing missions over Germany in the period of 1942-1945. A simulator projects history; it simulates it since we can't directly take part in it. Historically there were Zero women flying bombing missions, so to be historically accurate, there wouldn't be any female crew members.

Again at the end of the day, anyone is free to play the game, plain and simple, and i don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I don't have any issue with females playing the game. The only "Issue" i have is inaccurate depictions of history to cater to people who want to change it to make everyone feel included.

[gspectre]

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Originally posted by gspectre:

Well, at least I won't care if some lady wants to enjoy this sim and choose to look like one. I guess if there are any female characters, you guys will be saving your money. Thank you for your pride.

Then or now, I don't care who I serve next to as long as they can do the job. In this scenario, I was just asking about a co-pilot.

Just saying "no" would be okay but the sexist answers just make me hope they are in the Sim.

Just curious, of the entire back catalog of MPS Sims, are you guys against women playing any of them as well since IRL none of the combat rolls would have women in them, except if they are from the Russian side.

Well, first of all, I'm so sorry i triggered you since that's quite obvious.
Please point out where any of the comments were "Sexist" since i can't find a single one. Additionally, being a "Co-Pilot" has nothing to do with my answer, the crew member could have been the Pilot, ENG, or a gunner for all i care. What i am saying is that once again, this is a SIM depicting bombing missions over Germany in the period of 1942-1945. A simulator projects history; it simulates it since we can't directly take part in it. Historically there were Zero women flying bombing missions, so to be historically accurate, there wouldn't be any female crew members.

Again at the end of the day, anyone is free to play the game, plain and simple, and i don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I don't have any issue with females playing the game. The only "Issue" i have is inaccurate depictions of history to cater to people who want to change it to make everyone feel included.

Co-Pilot may have had nothing to do with your answer but it had everything to do with my original question.

Where the answer came across as sexist is when you say that because no women flew combat missions back in WW2 (which I acknowledged in my 1st post), they should not fly in this Sim, which is being made for entertainment purposes, not strictly historical.

To also imply that you don't care if women play the sim just as long as they don't look like women playing.

I personally have zero tolerance for the "WOKE" nonsense that seems to be infesting all the shows and movies in the past few years but It does not seem right that if a female should want to enjoy this sim, she must be a male character so other men feel more comfortable even though the dangers that were present back in WW2 are only simulated in this sim and there-fore do not really exist.

And from what I saw the last time I walked through a B-17, other than the Pilot, no one really sees the face of the Co-Pilot. Now, if the new sim is anything like the prior, but with multi-player She could move to any open position or help repair, give first-aid or take over position. How are those bad things if she's on your team helping? If you got injured, would you really refuse aid from a player just because she's female? Also, if flown in single player mode with a 12 aircraft formation, would it really bother you if out of 12 Co-Pilots, that maybe 2 might be randomly picked to be female?

For the female player, why should she not be allowed to pick 1 of those 2 Co-Pilots to play as?

I just have a problem understanding your view unless I see it from a sexist perspective.

Like I said, you saying NO is fine, it's just the reasons you gave that really make me question your answer.

[Chris]

Originally posted by gspectre:

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Well, first of all, I'm so sorry i triggered you since that's quite obvious.
Please point out where any of the comments were "Sexist" since i can't find a single one. Additionally, being a "Co-Pilot" has nothing to do with my answer, the crew member could have been the Pilot, ENG, or a gunner for all i care. What i am saying is that once again, this is a SIM depicting bombing missions over Germany in the period of 1942-1945. A simulator projects history; it simulates it since we can't directly take part in it. Historically there were Zero women flying bombing missions, so to be historically accurate, there wouldn't be any female crew members.

Again at the end of the day, anyone is free to play the game, plain and simple, and i don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I don't have any issue with females playing the game. The only "Issue" i have is inaccurate depictions of history to cater to people who want to change it to make everyone feel included.

Co-Pilot may have had nothing to do with your answer but it had everything to do with my original question.

Where the answer came across as sexist is when you say that because no women flew combat missions back in WW2 (which I acknowledged in my 1st post), they should not fly in this Sim, which is being made for entertainment purposes, not strictly historical.

To also imply that you don't care if women play the sim just as long as they don't look like women playing.

I personally have zero tolerance for the "WOKE" nonsense that seems to be infesting all the shows and movies in the past few years but It does not seem right that if a female should want to enjoy this sim, she must be a male character so other men feel more comfortable even though the dangers that were present back in WW2 are only simulated in this sim and there-fore do not really exist.

And from what I saw the last time I walked through a B-17, other than the Pilot, no one really sees the face of the Co-Pilot. Now, if the new sim is anything like the prior, but with multi-player She could move to any open position or help repair, give first-aid or take over position. How are those bad things if she's on your team helping? If you got injured, would you really refuse aid from a player just because she's female? Also, if flown in single player mode with a 12 aircraft formation, would it really bother you if out of 12 Co-Pilots, that maybe 2 might be randomly picked to be female?

For the female player, why should she not be allowed to pick 1 of those 2 Co-Pilots to play as?

I just have a problem understanding your view unless I see it from a sexist perspective.

Like I said, you saying NO is fine, it's just the reasons you gave that really make me question your answer.

I continue to fail to see where i specfically said no women should play the game, i said multiple times that they as characters shouldn't be included but quite frankly idc who plays the game. Additionally if a female is playing this game i'd hope and actually would assume that she would understand that this is a Historical Flight Simulator and know that no females flew B17s in combat there by meaning there are no female crew members.

I am in no way looking at this in a "sexist" manner and if this was a F35 Fighter sim, play as a male or female since both fly today, again i don't care. But since the game is based in 1942-45 and there were no females they once again shouldn't be in the game. Hell i even asked my Girlfriend just to make sure, and even she understood why a game going for Historical Realism wouldn't include female characters.

[gspectre]

Originally posted by PFC Haupt 29th Ret.:

Originally posted by gspectre:

Co-Pilot may have had nothing to do with your answer but it had everything to do with my original question.

Where the answer came across as sexist is when you say that because no women flew combat missions back in WW2 (which I acknowledged in my 1st post), they should not fly in this Sim, which is being made for entertainment purposes, not strictly historical.

To also imply that you don't care if women play the sim just as long as they don't look like women playing.

I personally have zero tolerance for the "WOKE" nonsense that seems to be infesting all the shows and movies in the past few years but It does not seem right that if a female should want to enjoy this sim, she must be a male character so other men feel more comfortable even though the dangers that were present back in WW2 are only simulated in this sim and there-fore do not really exist.

And from what I saw the last time I walked through a B-17, other than the Pilot, no one really sees the face of the Co-Pilot. Now, if the new sim is anything like the prior, but with multi-player She could move to any open position or help repair, give first-aid or take over position. How are those bad things if she's on your team helping? If you got injured, would you really refuse aid from a player just because she's female? Also, if flown in single player mode with a 12 aircraft formation, would it really bother you if out of 12 Co-Pilots, that maybe 2 might be randomly picked to be female?

For the female player, why should she not be allowed to pick 1 of those 2 Co-Pilots to play as?

I just have a problem understanding your view unless I see it from a sexist perspective.

Like I said, you saying NO is fine, it's just the reasons you gave that really make me question your answer.

I continue to fail to see where i specfically said no women should play the game, i said multiple times that they as characters shouldn't be included but quite frankly idc who plays the game. Additionally if a female is playing this game i'd hope and actually would assume that she would understand that this is a Historical Flight Simulator and know that no females flew B17s in combat there by meaning there are no female crew members.

I am in no way looking at this in a "sexist" manner and if this was a F35 Fighter sim, play as a male or female since both fly today, again i don't care. But since the game is based in 1942-45 and there were no females they once again shouldn't be in the game. Hell i even asked my Girlfriend just to make sure, and even she understood why a game going for Historical Realism wouldn't include female characters.

I do get your point. My thinking is with more choices could mean more players, that's all.

It seems we both see each others view but don't agree with each others reasons and that's fine.