What the hell is up with Master Ninja?!

[johnnybleu]

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but Path of the Master Ninja is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible. I know it's supposed to be hard, I know Ninja Gaiden is legendary for its crushing difficulty, and I'm supposed to "git gud", and that this is a "skill issue", but I think this difficulty is just very poorly thought out.

I can deal with enemies being way faster, insanely aggressive, reading my inputs, constantly grabbing me, and generally zipping around like ♥♥♥♥♥-up Dobermann. What I can't deal with is the RIDICULOUS damage output, and their massive health pool. I hit a claw ninja with an X,X,Y>shuriken cancel>X,Y into Izuna drop, and buddy just shrugs it off like nothing happened. Meanwhile, I take 2-3 hits and I'm down. If you're gonna have enemies hit like a truck, at least make them squishy (or vice versa)-- you can't do both!

Out of curiosity, I grabbed the Master Collection and fired up Sigma 2. I played on Master Ninja, and it was like a Sunday afternoon stroll through the park-- it was WAY easier than NG2B on Mentor, and I was absolutely floored at how easily enemies died. Those dreaded claw ninjas felt like they were made of tissue paper; I couldn't believe it.

I know that Sigma 2 is a terrible game for babies and everyone hates it, so I installed Fiend Busa's mod to pump up the enemy numbers, and it's STILL way easier than NG2B! I'm taking out endless waves of ninjas and fiends, and was able to make it to chapter 4 in a short sitting even though I play like crap. I don't know how modded Sigma 2 compares to the original, as I never played that one, but from the videos I've watched it's comparable (I think OG enemies hit harder).

I adore NG2B, it's probably my favorite hack-n-slash game ever, but Master Ninja difficulty is pretty much unplayable. Oh, and for the record, I rarely use UTs, and I don't think that chaining UTs makes for good gameplay. Again, if you're gonna have enemies that kill you in 3 hits, at least make them into glass canons. Though I'd much rather not getting one-shot because of the wacky camera or questionable targeting....

Anyway, I just had to vent. ;)

[BlueJin91]

It's not a skill issue. The high damage is a poor design and a common complaint. You can be over 80% of max health and an off-screen projectile from a gold Van Gelf can just kill you. Even blocking it takes away nearly half your health. Even highly skilled players just randomly get killed by things that they can't see coming due to the ridiculous damage. It's just a lazy way to give the illusion that MN is hard since it is actually pretty easy, just random. BTW, Sigma 2 was worse since it was littered with 1-hit kill throws. 2 Black toned some of these down. IS ninjas also had their health slightly lowered in 2 Black compared to Sigma 2.

Fiend Busa's White mod for 2 Black gives the player damage reduction so the player only takes half damage. The default value for MN is 2.00 but this can be adjusted in the configs. I personally think that 2.5 damage reduction feels best. Enemy health can also be adjusted. The default health value for MN enemies is 1.7, but I like to lower it to between 1~1.4 because of how tanky some enemies are (fiend ninjas).

[Gameo]

Originally posted by BlueJin91:

It's not a skill issue.

Whatever you have to tell yourself.
The skill ceiling is very very high but its still a skill ceilingm theres people out there who can take no damage

[Gameo]

I was referring to NG2 which is much harder than any of these others are.
Took over a decade to pull off but still boils down to a skill level

[Gameo]

Give it some time itll happen.

[BlueJin91]

*Deleted previous posts to aggregate into 1 post.

Even highly skilled players sometimes randomly get killed in the blink of an eye in 2 Black due to the ridiculous damage from off-screen attacks.

As for no damage runs, you do know that no damage runs are the exceptions, not the norm, right? It's not possible for a player to do no damage runs at will with skill alone. While skill is very important for no damage runs, luck plays a huge part so it takes many attempts to get one successful no damage run (not only that, no damage runs sometimes involve exploiting certain tactics over skillful play). The reason both NG2 and 2 Black no damage runs are segmented and nobody can do a natural run from beginning to end with no interruptions isn't because these players aren't skilled enough.

Originally posted by Gameo:

Give it some time itll happen.

Whatever you have to tell yourself. You're claiming it's a skill issue based on your imaginary player that doesn't even exist.

[Gameo]

Nah dude. If youre getting off screened its because you made mistake and wasnt paying attetion hard enough or just not good enough. Ala skill issue.
Does NG offen feel cheap? Yea. To me at times, but its still a Skill issue because I couldve done something different or better or paid more attention.
You sittin here acting as if it's a Mario Kart or something where its not all about your skill but rather the game design where even if youre clearly meant to win some bs blue shell or whatever can rob you of that regardless. And I was damn good at MKW, top 10-15 in the world on all time trial maps where most people I played with said it felt pointless to even play against, yet I was occasionally robbed by game design where there was nothing I could do about it no matter what.
There is a difference.
Dont get me wrong the game can feel absurdly cheap and I myself have repeated 'this is some bs' many times but thats because of me and not inherent design.

[BlueJin91]

Ch3 at the end literally has Van Gelfs in opposite ends shooting projectiles at the player that take away over 80% of health on hit (and nearly half health on block). Even if you move to one end, you literally cannot keep all of them all onscreen. The game also literally takes camera control away from the player in certain situations. Players who have completed no damage runs still get hit by offscreen projectiles at times and you say it's a skill issue...

Please show the no damage runners your mad skills of keeping all enemies onscreen and never getting hit by random offscreen attacks.

[Wehzy]

Originally posted by Gameo:

Originally posted by BlueJin91:

It's not a skill issue.

Whatever you have to tell yourself.
The skill ceiling is very very high but its still a skill ceilingm theres people out there who can take no damage

This. Every game has some random rng moments which can kill you but its not as bad as you say. Im not a NG veteran and even im able to play it on master ninja after playing this game on every difficulty. Its hard, but not that hard. I can't believe people say its "rng" if you take damage when its not. Just takes a long time to learn this game.

[BlueJin91]

Go to chapter 3 when you first start fighting gold van gelfs and check yourself. Blocking their projectile literally takes away nearly half your full health. Getting hit by it takes away more than 80% of your health. It's exactly as I said.

I didn't say MN was hard, I said it was easy but random. Ch3 is a good example. The section where you fight ninja dogs then get introduced to gold van gelfs. End of ch3 where you fight gold van gelfs on opposite ends is another good example. See if you can get skilled enough to replay these areas like 10 times in a row and keep all of them onscreen at all times and never take damage with skill alone. It's just not possible with skill alone.

If you go watch videos of highly skilled players on youtube, you'll see that even they can't always avoid random damage. Even no damage runs have to be segmented. Players who do speed runs and segmented no damage runs are already EXTREMELY skilled, but doing a natural no damage run also requires a huge amount of luck. Expecting somebody can do a natural no damage run if they're just "more skilled" than these players is pure fantasy.

[Gameo]

Youre confusing skill with consistency

[johnnybleu]

Originally posted by BlueJin91:

BTW, Sigma 2 was worse since it was littered with 1-hit kill throws. 2 Black toned some of these down. IS ninjas also had their health slightly lowered in 2 Black compared to Sigma 2.

Well, there might be something wrong with the version of Sigma 2 on Steam, because that wasn't my experience at all. I recently beat the game on Master Ninja, and it was orders of magnitude easier than 2 Black on Mentor. I didn't encounter any one-hit kill attacks, and the IS ninjas felt super squishy (those guys are harder to kill than cockroaches in 2 Black).

I mean, maybe they have more health in Sigma 2, but they de-limb SUPER easy, making them far easier to deal with.

[BlueJin91]

Are you playing Sigma 2 with Fiend Busa's mod? His mod makes many changes to the game. I'm guessing IS ninjas are easier to kill and there are no more 1-hit kill throws in his mod.

For 2 Black, his mod is called White mod. It's an amazing mod. It increases enemy numbers, increases de-limb rate, reduces enemy health, reduces enemy damage, fixes many weapon tracking issues, etc. IS ninjas are easier to kill and MN enemies no longer deal ridiculous damage to you.

[johnnybleu]

I played the vanilla version of Sigma 2, and am currently playing with the mod (though my game JUST crashed during the staircase fight-- I guess there was too much going on lol). In both versions the enemies are WAY squishier than in Black 2. I had NEVER seen a triple decapitation on a Flying Swallow until I played Sigma 2.

I guess I'll eventually check out the NG2 White mod (I've seen some of your videos showcasing it, and it seems pretty fun). Honestly, I'd much rather play the game as the developers intended, but if it's really not balanced to be enjoyable (to me), well...

[BlueJin91]

If you played Sigma 2 without the mod, then I have no idea what's going on.

I understand wanting to stick with the official game. I usually try to stay away from mods that alter the game, too. This is one of the few exceptions. The way I do it is, I beat MN a few times with White mod, then I beat MN 1~2 times without the mod just to make sure I don't forget the official game.

BTW, is there a specific area you're having trouble with in 2 Black's MN difficulty? Since you can beat Sigma 2 MN, I'm sure you can beat 2 Black's MN with some minor adjustments (differences between Sigma 2 and 2 Black are fairly minor). 2 Black's MN is fairly easy due to reduced enemy numbers. It's just that the ridiculous enemy damage can lead to random deaths at times. There's a common choke point in chapter 3 (involving ninja dogs then gold van gelfs), but once you get past that point, it should be much smoother.

NInja dogs have 1-hit kill grabs so it's best to use safe methods. UT's and air juggles work well. Against gold van gelfs, fast de-limbs to OT are best. Falcon's Talon's xyy is basically a guaranteed de-limb on hit (the second y must be pressed just as the first y hits). Due to timing and short range, it can be a bit tricky to use at times. Vigoorian Flail's forward y is not as consistent of a de-limb, but it's faster and easier to use.

Despite the ridiculous enemy damage, 2 Black's MN is still really fun and you may love it if you decide to stick through to the end. Around chapter 7 or so, increased health makes it a bit less likely to get insta-killed as long as you keep your health above 75% and play safe.

[johnnybleu]

Originally posted by BlueJin91:

Since you can beat Sigma 2 MN, I'm sure you can beat 2 Black's MN with some minor adjustments (differences between Sigma 2 and 2 Black are fairly minor). 2 Black's MN is fairly easy due to reduced enemy numbers.

Yeah, see, THAT's the crux of my post. Sigma 2 on Path of the Master Ninja is orders of magnitude easier than 2 Black MN. In fact, I consider it significantly easier than 2 Black on Mentor. If you have the game, please give it a try and you'll see what I mean. It's actually shocking.

I might play the Ninja Gaiden 2 White mod as practice to try and eventually beat vanilla 2 Black on MN. I'm currently stuck on the Chapter 3 choke point you described. I know how to deal with the dogs (UT spam), but I rarely make it out of the parking lot with the bunch of ninjas. And on the rare occasion that I get to the winged fiends, I get demolished.

That said, I used to get stuck in Chapter 1, on that encounter right before the Lunar Staff. I would literally play for hours, and not be able to beat it. Then I went back and beat the game on Mentor a few times (as well as beat Sigma 2 a few times), and my skills improved-- I can get through that brawl in a few tries now. So there might be hope.

But I still maintain that Master Ninja difficulty is kindda busted in 2 Black. I just got my hands on a copy of the original Ninja Gaiden 2, and I'll be borrowing a friend's Xbox 360, and then I'll have played all 3 versions of NG2 on Master Ninja (within a few weeks). I want to see which game (if any) is the outlier.