Ask the original designer why...

[Yasha]

Over 20 years ago, I almost bankrupted MicroProse by designing Darklands and leading the team that built it. I will do my best to answer design questions in this thread.


There are some caveats:

- I do not have any legal rights to the game or its code, so I can't promise any improvements or follow-ons.

- I am unfamiliar with the code adjustments made to produce this version. I can't help you with bugs.

- I'm a designer and producer, not an artist or programmer, so I can't help you mod the graphics or decompile the code.

- I don't have 10+ million of dollars to invest in making a new version. If somebody were to offer me a decent budget,I could do it. I've built and led teams many times in the game industry. However, I don't think that's going to happen for Darklands in what's left of my natural lifespan.

Nevertheless, for those seeking insights into the mind of a designer/producer, I'm available.

[DurcheinanderME]

Originally posted by Tuco:

Did you ever consider contacting THQ Nordic to propose this "spiritual sequel" to them?
I know it can't be as simple as giving a random phone call, but on the other hand this seems like the exact sort of low-to-mid budget project they usually invest on.

Also, as a random consideration: I don't think Darklands is well known enough to generate any buzz BEFORE starting development, but it's a niche cult loved enough to turn old fans like me and other people in this thread into evangelists for a sequel.

The best bet would possibly be to put together some bare-boned pre-production and rely on that "cult status" to make the gaming press pretend they ever heard about it to sound even just remotely competent.

A bit like a lot of journalists pretended to be familiar with Wastelands despise never having even played the original two Fallouts when Fargo launched the Kickstarter campaign.

Without question, I would evangelize the hell out of a Darklands successor. It and Ulltima VII are the greatest RPGs ever made.

[Yasha]

@Tuco & Lancer VI - Thanks for the kind words. There may come a day when your help in promoting a "spiritual sequel" would come in handy. Unfortunately, that day is still in the far future. Finding people to work on the project is the current problem.

[LangyX]

@Yasha, since I have been following your thread here, decided to google you to see what else your known for found out you used to own a miniatures store and you won the 1981 Charlie, I assume for your game Barbarian Prince which I have sadly never heard of prior to this search, but i love the concept of a single player board game, one of my favourites is firefly because it also can be played single player due to "pre programed" card events you pull from a deck. (sounds like something you would also enjoy)
this kind of explains where your experience came from when you started to design Darklands.
I myself at the present age of 34 have gone back to university to become a designer, (been a tv repairman most my life up to this point, and yes that’s still a job but its becoming redundant) I will probably end up a web designer rather than a game designer as that seems to be the most viable employment path these days, but I enjoyed reading about a few of your exploits which are out there on the web, hell I might even see if I cant find a copy of Barbarian Prince to add to my games cupboard, not enough people play board games anymore, I try to get my kids interested but they are usually distracted by something like Minecraft.
Any way I find your story inspiring good job mate.

Edit. Found a copy for anyone interested. https://dwarfstar.brainiac.com/ds_barbarianprince.html

Also found this absolutely brilliant interview on youtube channel Matt chat 78, With none other than Arnold AKA Yasha, on our favourite topic of darklands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I30dzwiNxLk

its a 3 part interview, Arnold does have a minor stutter that comes out in the interview but frankly it does not detract from the content in any way, and despite the video being almost 10 years old its super relevant to the topic at hand, if you haven’t seen it I recommend you go and have a watch.

P.S
He recommends a copy of the Official clue book in the interview, In case your not aware its bundled with our steam copy look in 'Install path'\Darklands\Bonus Content

Default path is C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Darklands\Bonus Content

Soundtrack map and Reference Cards are also in there.

[Yasha]

Actually, I never owned a miniatures store, although I did publish various miniatures rules, and was either designer, "developer" or supporting designer in various boardgames. By the end of my 20's (at the end of the 1970s) I ended up as publishing director at Heritage USA, which manufactured various miniatures, miniatures rules, and boardgames. It was there that I did more boardgames, including the award winning "Barbarian Prince" in the dwarfstar line, as well as a PnP RPG ("Swordbearer"). When Heritage went bankrupt, I moved into computer games at Coleco in West Hartford, Connecticut. When Coleco started to collapse, I moved on to MicroProse in Maryland, where I did Darklands. The main take-away from all this is that game companies often have short life spans.

[LangyX]

I know what you mean, I don't think there is such a thing as a life time job with one organisation anymore, there are probably a few exceptions to that with companies like blizzard, but over all its about the marketability of the products, computer hardware moves on and games just become obsolete with hardware, the fact they still sell games like Darklands is a testament to the quality of your product.

[Triplefox]

I happened to be linked to this thread - I played Darklands many years after it released and found it very interesting and inspirational, though a bit inaccessible. Later on I went on to do games development(it's been over a decade now) and basically agree with the assessments Yasha makes about how feasible it is to make a product that is fleshed out to current expectations.

If I were to approach the subject, though, I would be looking in the direction of leveraging a procedural/user-generated approach to content. The original Darklands had some of the most sophisticated character creation of its time, and this is a feature that current games also boast in a more cosmetic form - one of the trends that has really taken hold of the industry since 1992 is to focus the products around making "doll" or "action figure" avatars, and for professional game players on Youtube and Twitch to do storytelling with these avatars.

And that idea would lead me away from reviving the original systems design in terms of modelling lots and lots of stats and a big open RPG world - because it's those "big systems" concepts that accumulate unexpected scope, make the UX cluttered and difficult to learn, and really drag down a project - but instead to provide a lot of procedural detail about this character's life before they start adventuring, introduce some cosmetic aspects to give them a portrait and costume, then keep their subsequent adventures more constrained and told in episodic form using the choice gameplay of the original, with the simulation limited to simpler binary qualities and a few sources of chaotic behavior(RNG, timers and finite state interactions).

Then the focus is on giving prompts that add structure and assist storytelling, more than it is to be specifically detailed and fuss over min/maxing the character or keeping track of logistical parts of gameplay. When focus stays on driving the character from one event to the next without grand simulation loops, the detail doesn't have to be very great, the environment doesn't have to be very explorable. You still need a budget and art direction(a picture tells 1000 words), but the total asset burden is shifted towards writing/design. For combat portrayal, my first pass would aim for stock fantasy 3D models using stock Mixamo animations with a zoomed out isometric camera, and then subsequently iterate into more sophisticated, customized characters as budget permits.

But the depth of content of the episodes is really the thing that defined Darklands to me - the signs of research surfaced everywhere and made it more than a typical fantasy RPG, and on that end I would also want a user creation tool that allows creators to make adventure modules to share, reusing a lot of premade stock elements and fill-in-the-blanks scenario templates so that everyone can leverage that research to make adventures that feel similarly grounded in the same universe and create something that feels large in aggregate. i.e. instead of modelling "Mainz" as a fully simulated city, model it in terms of properties relevant to a story("has inn") and allow custom names and descriptions for those elements, plus some recurring characters. Make it easy to assemble each of these elements into a complete module, and then players can quickly make a "large number of small adventures."

That game would probably be different enough to no longer be "Darklands", since some of the original appeal is in the grandiosity, but its form is more accessible and much closer to the indie scopes I'm accustomed to.

[Tuco]

I already said months ago, I'll stress again now: while i don't doubt his general assessment of the budget necessary, i think he may be overstating the amount of production value required on a cosmetic level.
The perfect art style for a new Darklands, something that could be at the same time budget-effective to produce, cool looking enough and faithful to the style of the original, would be something like Another World (Out of This World for American users):

https://ip.trueachievements.com/remote/store-images.s-microsoft.com/image/apps.3971.67624490702225367.4d5b43a5-e150-4a3c-bbb6-bae6ccc8a7b4.3458ba15-ff46-49a4-9dea-382dbf038fff?width=900

Simple, stylish polygonal models, a lot of nice animations (and this is an area where it could be easy to improve on the original, with some cheap rotoscope techniques available today, public assets, etc) and backgrounds that wouldn't require an excessive amount of work to be produced in large amounts and with satisfying variety.
Also, being a low poly art style, the benefits of allowing a certain degree of customization on characters.

[Yasha]

Trliplefox and Tuco - thank you for the intelligent and insightful comments.

@Triplefox - You have outlined an interesting approach to bringing some of the concepts in Darklands into the 21st Century. I agree that Darklands has too many numbers and whatnot for comfortable play. Like you, in my quarter-century of game design work since then, I've come to prefer things that are easier to perceive and operate, even if I rely on ever more elaborate mathematics, data and algorithms behind the scenes.

Since you're very familiar with the indie scene, perhaps you could lead a team to create such a game? I'd certainly be interested in trying it, and the world definitely needs more historical games! Of course, if you rely on players to provide engaging content, especially in a historical game, I think you'll find the results disappointing.

Like you, Triplefox, I've given the question of a Darklands spiritual successor considerable time and effort - with the aid of a few others. I am not in a position to discuss more in public. However, if you are interested, please send an email with real-world contact info to my personal email (see below for details).

@Tuco - If I were to eliminate the need for realistic animation and real-time combat, say by using a turn-based system with much more limited graphics, I believe I could halve the $10 million budget to perhaps $5 million for development. However, a decent marketing campaign would probably cost another couple million. Heck, just a good marketing director costs over a quarter million a year (overall cost to a software company for a person is about 2x their salary).

While I am a great fan of "middleware" and "off the shelf" software, I've also worked with enough artists over the decades that I can say most insist on inserting some personal creativity. And games are much better for it. I wouldn't want to develop a game without having artists contributing to it. The example you give shows just how much artistic talent is needed to make even "simple" graphical systems perform expressively.

It is true there are alternatives to starting a company and paying people. I have been investigating those with considerable energy. And again I make this offer: anyone with game industry experience, who is interested in contributing to a spiritual successor of Darklands, should contact me via my private email. That email is available in my Steam account profile (if you click the "view more info" option). I am happy to talk privately about my thoughts, but am not in a position to speak in public about it.

[Tuco]

Originally posted by Yasha:

@Tuco - If I were to eliminate the need for realistic animation and real-time combat, say by using a turn-based system with much more limited graphics, I believe I could halve the $10 million budget to perhaps $5 million for development. However, a decent marketing campaign would probably cost another couple million. Heck, just a good marketing director costs over a quarter million a year (overall cost to a software company for a person is about 2x their salary).

Just to be clear, i have absolutely no doubt you could find an art style that would cost even just a fifth or a tenth of what I'm advocating for.
But I didn't pick my words casually when I described my suggestion as "budget-effective" since it would be reasonably cheap while looking genuinely pretty, even in trailers and promotional material.

"Saving a lot on animations" on the other hand would probably result on a... well, let's face it, a cheap-looking product that many not already attached to the franchise would possibly even dismiss as shovelware. And static/poorly animated art would really, REALLY need to stand out to impress someone in a RPG (then again I absolutely love Battle Brothers, on a personal level).

Turn-based combat on the other hand could make it a real winner these days. You definitely would hear a complaint from my side.
It's not like real time combat was exactly the highlight for Darklands in the first place, and it could eventually turn the game in something very "streamer-friendly", not to mention something lot easier to port on other platforms other than PC on a playable state (i.e. console and tablet players seem to favor PC ports of RPGs based on turn-based combat rather than RTWP).

[bkasten]

Mr. Hendrick - why not do a PnP RPG set during the Hundred Years War? Sort of Barbarian Prince meets Darklands. Among the many intriguing aspects of your Darklands design were your NPCs and the various complex encounters - particularly interesting were those you planned but weren't able to implement in Darklands like Hussite rebellions, sieges, war torn regions, etc. While the automated bookkeeping is nice, the narrative you created along with the historical backdrop is something that can be just as interesting without a computer.

[Yasha]

bkasten - you are correct, and really ANYONE could take the Barbarian Prince game system and put it in a historical setting, grafting into it a lot of the spirit of Darklands. In fact, I'm surprised more people in this generation of kickstarted boardgame creation, who clearly understand the necessary printing technology, haven't done it. Perhaps you could do it?

As for me, I'm already spending my spare time on things related to a computer game project that can't be announced for a while yet.

However, as you perhaps know, the nadir of the Hundred Years War (late 14th Century, or "The Calamitous 14th Century" as Barbara Tuchman called it) is the period that has my interest. If you want the best modern history of this period, Jonathan Sumption's multi-volume history of "The Hundred Years War" is unbeatable - and probably will remain so for a generation or two once he finishes it (he's still writing the 5th and final volume). However, for 'local color' Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" is still a fun read, although her comparisons to our era seem forced.

[bkasten]

Thank you, sir. I shall consider it. I had the good fortune to have a certain person you know - James F. Dunnigan - as a boss for a few years. Consuming Jim's work in the 1970s was the primary spark for my lifelong interest in history. Sometime around 1990-91 I was an original contributor and tester on his Hundred Years War Online game. And in fact Jim shared his design spec and various numeric models with me. As a numbers guy, I found it fascinating. The game was perhaps somewhat like Crusader Kings 2. It was centered on simulating fief economies, military logistics, and of course dynastic simulation at the individual level. I felt that the game required one to literally live in it (i.e., stay online) around the clock to be most effective. And for some people that wasn't a problem.

In any case, that experience instilled in me a very great interest in the period. And I always felt, like you, that the very personal, historic, heroic, political, spiritual, etc., nature of your Darklands design was a perfect fit right into the heart of France in the latter 1300s.

You've inspired me to obtain Sumption's work and study it, as well as re-read Tuchman.
With thanks and respect,
Bob

[stevefabry]

This was the finest historical role playing game ever made. I would pay a lot for remake

[Godsdemon 03]

I enjoyed this game in my youth and Roadwar 2000 (by SSI) and Roadwar Europa. I tried to play the freeware version of Roadwar 2000 in a dos shell but I can't even tell which direction the nose of my car is in simulated combat. ( those graphics were really bad back then!)
UBISOFT owns the rights to the Roadwar series. That won't be resurrected. =(

[HH-52]

While I neiher possess the skills nor the resources to contribute to any software project, please allow me to thank you for your game, which was ranks among the first memories coming to me when I remember my adolescence thrity years ago, down to the point that I just last week celebrated in a location which actually iwas referenced in your game.

If there is one thing I dare offer as a suggestion for a recreation of Darklands or other historical game: The developers of the original Die Gilde (The Guild) had a historical journal that would highlight some actual events that occured in history corresponding to the time in game (the game time starts in 1400 and by 1409, for example, reference was made to the Council of Pisa), but not in the form of a wiki article. Instead light-hearted journal entries in the tonality of the game were used (i.e. "1409 - representatives of both Obediences gathered in Pisa with the intend to end the Schism of 1378 with two popes. But now the Church has three popes!..."). I found these snippets to be highly entertaining and educational and it helped to set the game story into the overall historical context.

Again, thank you for my all-time most favored game and best of fortune for your new project!

Jan