This is a great example of why a bullet hell game should not have RNG.

[Xenos]

I only have two eyes. I do not play Touhou for fun in my spare time.
No, I physically can not keep track of three different AOEs at the same time.
Yes, I will lose an entire level run just because of completely unavoidable bad RNG.
So no, Vanripper, I CANNOT keep track of Zymora, her 4-directional AOEs, 9 lightning bolts on my screen, and four different shock traps at the same time. NOBODY CAN.
Level 9 is pure luck.

There's obviously skill involved, yes. To silence those people in advance.
But whether you actually beat the level or not comes down solely to if she LETS you beat it.

[Forblaze]

Zmora is hard but nothing she does is unavoidable. RNG isn't what's killing you.

[Xenos]

Originally posted by Forblaze:

Zmora is hard but nothing she does is unavoidable. RNG isn't what's killing you.

You absolutely can be forced into a situation where a shock trap WILL hit you if you try to cross it, a lightning bolt is pinning you in, and she's still going for her melee right on top of you. It's already happened to me more than a few times.

[Forblaze]

Originally posted by Xenos:

You absolutely can be forced into a situation where a shock trap WILL hit you if you try to cross it, a lightning bolt is pinning you in, and she's still going for her melee right on top of you. It's already happened to me more than a few times.

You get a pretty generous notification before both the shock trap and the lightning bolt. The generator timing isn't to tight that you have to beeline every one. You can afford to double back if you recognize a dangerous situation.

[FireMage]

Lvl 9 attacks are always in the same order - charge, 3 plus sigh electric waves on top of you and than 2 rage slams with extra bolts from the sky.

[Xenos]

Originally posted by Forblaze:

Originally posted by Xenos:

You absolutely can be forced into a situation where a shock trap WILL hit you if you try to cross it, a lightning bolt is pinning you in, and she's still going for her melee right on top of you. It's already happened to me more than a few times.

You get a pretty generous notification before both the shock trap and the lightning bolt. The generator timing isn't to tight that you have to beeline every one. You can afford to double back if you recognize a dangerous situation.

Please refer back to the original post where I state that I only have two eyes.
I cannot keep track of the trap, the bolts, AND the ghost trying to smack me at the same time. One of them has to be looked away from. That's when one of them gets you.

Originally posted by FireMage:

Lvl 9 attacks are always in the same order - charge, 3 plus sigh electric waves on top of you and than 2 rage slams with extra bolts from the sky.

I figured that out fast; the issue becomes that they can overlap if you can't get out of range fast enough, and the hammer waves can't decide if they're delayed or instant hitboxes, because I've been hit at the very edges of their waves both near instantly AND after a delay, wheras the shock trap hitbox duration is so minuscule its not even really a valid threat until you look away for half a second and get hit by the 0.2 second long hitbox.

You either pay attention to the traps and thus lose track of the ghost or the lightning's exact location, or forget the traps because they're rarely an actual threat just to get tagged by them because it only takes one hit to get killed.

[Forblaze]

Originally posted by Xenos:

Please refer back to the original post where I state that I only have two eyes.
I cannot keep track of the trap, the bolts, AND the ghost trying to smack me at the same time. One of them has to be looked away from.

Well that's not really RNG, is it?

[Xenos]

Originally posted by Forblaze:

Originally posted by Xenos:

Please refer back to the original post where I state that I only have two eyes.
I cannot keep track of the trap, the bolts, AND the ghost trying to smack me at the same time. One of them has to be looked away from.

Well that's not really RNG, is it?

I would kindly ask you to not try to intentionally dismiss RANDOM lightning bolts as not RNG. They are, quite literally, random.

[Xenos]

I also want to point out that the icons for the shock trap and the lightning bolts are the same icon, and the lightning bolts CAN spawn on top of traps. Which means it can be impossible to realistically tell if its a trap or a lightning bolt when its only visible out of the corner of your eye.

[Davidcoolassassin]

cope

[the ouch mouse]

it is entirely possible that you're moving into unfavorable positions as a result of poor on-the-spot decision making, causing the rng to have an easier time locking you down than if you'd reacted properly. that's perfectly normal with almost any game.

level's fine, it's challenging enough and good fun when you get the hang of it. take it one step at a time.

[Forblaze]

Originally posted by Xenos:

Originally posted by Forblaze:

Well that's not really RNG, is it?

I would kindly ask you to not try to intentionally dismiss RANDOM lightning bolts as not RNG. They are, quite literally, random.

So is the problem that you can't keep track of them or that they're random? You have *so* long to see an incoming lightning bolt.

[Xenos]

Originally posted by the ouch mouse:

it is entirely possible that you're moving into unfavorable positions as a result of poor on-the-spot decision making, causing the rng to have an easier time locking you down than if you'd reacted properly. that's perfectly normal with almost any game.

level's fine, it's challenging enough and good fun when you get the hang of it. take it one step at a time.

Which would be fine, if I was a hardened battle veteran of the bullet hell genre.
But I'm a normal person, so having to make six different movement adjustments in one singular second is an extremely hard demand.

I know every single pattern and every single attack and they still hit me because I have to determine, within one singular second:
- Is that shock trap going to hit me
- is that lightning going to hit me
- Is that a lightning warning, or a shock trap warning
- what is the pattern of the lightning?
- How close is the ghost? Can she immediately attack me?
- At what point in my path did she target me so I dont backtrack straight into the AOE?

Whoops, that was actually a shock trap icon and not a lightning icon, so hesitating for half a second just got you killed since you didn't have enough time to dodge the 4-way slam. Try again. Rinse and repeat.

The idea of "react better" is a nice on in theory and in retrospect, but in practice and under pressure its a very fallible idea.

[Hurkyl]

Originally posted by Xenos:

The idea of "react better" is a nice on in theory and in retrospect, but in practice and under pressure its a very fallible idea.

React is not your only option. Manipulating the enemies so their attacks happen on your terms is a big part of danmaku games.

E.g. when she's running you down to do her "rush at you and then do three teleport-and-cross-shaped-aoe attacks", what you can do is move to invite her to do the rush attack in a convenient place and then do three diagonal dodges -- you don't even have to react for these since you now know exactly when and where they're coming -- and voila, you've moved through that part of the attack pattern and are free to cover a lot of ground while she's on the other half.

I guess technically this is "react better", but it's asking you to react better to "she's starting the first half of her attack pattern and you have a few seconds to decide where to take it" and not "she just teleported so you have a split second to twitch dodge the cross aoe".

[Toastman]

It's not random, it's just VERY obtuse and hard to figure out. This isn't a traditional bullet hell where reaction time and dodging is the key to success. It's management.

Planning ahead and manipulating the ghosts so they don't trap you is how you live. Sometimes you'll have to take another lap before you can fix or grab something.

I have my own grievances about how this game is designed (like the weird beat 'em up style perspective) but I do appreciate how it's mechanics make it stand out from other games in the Diner Dash genre.

[the ouch mouse]

Originally posted by Xenos:

Originally posted by the ouch mouse:

it is entirely possible that you're moving into unfavorable positions as a result of poor on-the-spot decision making, causing the rng to have an easier time locking you down than if you'd reacted properly. that's perfectly normal with almost any game.

level's fine, it's challenging enough and good fun when you get the hang of it. take it one step at a time.

Which would be fine, if I was a hardened battle veteran of the bullet hell genre.
But I'm a normal person, so having to make six different movement adjustments in one singular second is an extremely hard demand.

I know every single pattern and every single attack and they still hit me because I have to determine, within one singular second:
- Is that shock trap going to hit me
- is that lightning going to hit me
- Is that a lightning warning, or a shock trap warning
- what is the pattern of the lightning?
- How close is the ghost? Can she immediately attack me?
- At what point in my path did she target me so I dont backtrack straight into the AOE?

Whoops, that was actually a shock trap icon and not a lightning icon, so hesitating for half a second just got you killed since you didn't have enough time to dodge the 4-way slam. Try again. Rinse and repeat.

The idea of "react better" is a nice on in theory and in retrospect, but in practice and under pressure its a very fallible idea.

im a relatively normal gamer who hasn't played a bullet hell in like three years, and i cleared hardmode in 3 hours.
there is quite literally nothing more to it than "react better".