Regarding the jump function

[```skunk3```]

Is this new game just going to feature 2 jumps? (forward jump and backflip) Or will it bring back the vertical jump and back hop? Those 2 jump techniques are super important, especially since it has been confirmed that worms will indeed be able to occupy the same space.

Also, in WMD, when backflipping, can you still 'steer' your worm in mid-air like in Rev/CW, or is it just a normal backflip? I hope that it's not 'steerable.'

This is another feature request if not already implemented... vertical jump and back hop!

[```skunk3```]

Are you sure the jump in WMD can be steered? Have you played it?

[```skunk3```]

Hmm. I might have to re-watch some of those videos because as far as I can tell, the backflip looks like a normal backflip, rather than going forward or straight up.

They don't need lots of various buttons for the older jump styles... just enter and backspace. It's quite simple.

[```skunk3```]

I see the 2.5D Worms jump function as very dumbed-down. Press once for forward jump and twice for a backflip, and steer whilst in mid-air. That sucks. People don't have to face the right direction when jumping, or develop the knowledge/skill to use the right jump technique at the right time... instead it is distilled into a noob-friendly, all-purpose jump button.

I know my critiques seem nitpicky, but those who started playing Worms with the older ones know what I mean. For instance, the 'back hop' which is done by double pressing enter in W:A might seem totally unnecessary and superfluous, but there's instances in which ONLY that jump will get you where you need to move! Also, there's schemes like 'battle race' which require an in-depth understanding of jumping and maneuvering, and without those techniques, the scheme would either not exist or be a half-assed version. Without parachutes, there's certain instances in which one cannot get to where they need to go with *only jumps* in the newer Worms games... yet in games like W:A and WWP one can.

These little details are super important. The vertical jump (backspace) from W:A/WWP is crucial for setting up certain attacks. I want to see W.M.D. be the best Worms game ever released. To have longevity and mass appeal, the gameplay needs to be on point.

[Tilen]

Also with a preset jump you can always count on where you're gonna land. If it's steerable you can never really be sure; when do I start holding the directional input so I don't hit the ledge but still land on top?

It's something I don't really care about but I can see how this could be an argument for preset jumps! :P

[```skunk3```]

Originally posted by Tilen:

Also with a preset jump you can always count on where you're gonna land. If it's steerable you can never really be sure; when do I start holding the directional input so I don't hit the ledge but still land on top?

It's something I don't really care about but I can see how this could be an argument for preset jumps! :P

Yep!

[```skunk3```]

I'm not going to quote your post due to length, but I'll respond to your points:

Navigating a complex map is not as easy as you make it seem. Sure, randomly-generated maps tend to be fairly easy on the whole, but user-created maps can be very complex to get through because they have to be done *just right.* A tiny failure can mean losing the match, losing ground, or at the very least, lots of frustration.

What I said about not being able to navigate without parachutes: A player will find themselves in tricky situations at times (in the newer games) in which it is impossible to get to where they need to go by using jumps only, and not relying on a parachute... yet in W:A/WWP they would be able to pull it off. The differences in games and game engines can't be discounted, but they don't change anything, ultimately. By having more jump techniques available, players can (with the requisite skill / knowledge) more effectively navigate terrain without using anything from their inventory. This is a good thing.

The vertical jump would be critically important in W.M.D. as it has been confirmed that worms will now be able to occupy the same space, unlike any worms game post WWP. I do agree with you that in most cases, the backfiip would suffice, but there's many instances in which it would not. This is especially true when it comes to worms on an incline, precise weapon placement during attacks, etc. The vertical jump doesn't go as high as the backflip, nor does it travel backwards, obviously. I know it seems like splitting hairs, but ask anyone who plays W:A if the back hop or vertical jump should be taken out. I guarantee you that you will not find a SINGLE player who would say 'yes.' The vertical jump is used frequently in W:A for a variety of reasons. I'm not sure what you mean about a dragon punch with a higher reach... In W:A you would have to equip the dragon punch, press backspace x2, then space bar to activate the dragon punch. In Clan Wars, you'd do basically exactly the same thing... so I'm not sure what your point is there?

I don't see how it is difficult to understand how or why having 4 jump techniques as opposed to 2 is superior in terms of gameplay potential.

I never said that it's not good when players have to learn how to steer jumps. What I agreed to is that steerable jumps are less predictable. Sure, it can be argued that the steerable jumps are a 'skill' of some sort, but it's a totally unnecessary skill when we already have an example of a superior system that should be implemented, especially since this new title is more or less designed to emulate the core gameplay of W:A. Also, the steerable jumps simply make more sense in the 2.5D games, as there's perspective issues and difference in jumping abilities between the worm classes.

Do you play W:A currently? Have you played W:A ever? If so, how familiar are you with the game? If you were familiar with the mechanics of W:A/WWP I don't see how you could fail to recognize any objective justification for the older jumping mechanics vs. the mechanics from the 2.5D games. Again, W.M.D. will be 2D and won't feature worm classes.

I am not arguing that the old jumping system takes a considerably higher degree of 'skill' than the newer jumping system. Instead, what I'm saying is that it offers the player more options, and is more precise. Therefore, it is objectively better.

[```skunk3```]

W:A on the whole is a far more precise game than any of the newer onees. It's pretty much pixel-perfect. Players are capable of so much more in W:A. When Reloaded came out I was actually disgusted by the game mechanics because they are so poor in comparison.. and that's not because I am 'old school' and automatically think that the older games are better because I'm unwilling to learn the ins and outs of a new game. I was turned off by Reloaded because the gameplay overall is far more awkward, less precise, and and simplified.

As I said, if W.M.D. is trying to bring this series back to its roots, Team17 needs to go all the way and not half-ass it. So far it looks promising, but if it ends up being more like Reloaded than Armageddon, I'm going to be super disappointed.

[```skunk3```]

I'll respond when I'm home, but I can shut down those points.

[```skunk3```]

The 'moonwalk' should be implemented for sure!

[That guy with the Spoon]

moonwalk was never a thing in a worms game initial release. it got added to WA with one of deadcode's updates and thus is very unlikely to make a appearence in this game.

i agree that bungee needs to be in, because its a very good ultility to get around the map. especially in the team17 scheme in WA where you have this 2 section caverns and only 1 rope to make use of during the entire match.

i'm not sure about the 4th (enter enter backspace) jump. its exacly the same as the enter enter backjump but with the backflip animation playing instead. it could arguably be a bug where the game thinks the player has double taped the backspace button and does the backflip animation instead then. that jump adds nothing to the gameplay.

[Dr Crazii]

Here's my limited understanding of the functions of the 2 types of jumping from W:A and WWP that aren't included in the later versions of worms:

NOTE THAT CUSTOM MAPS AND MODES/SCHEMES BUILT BY THE WORMS COMMUNITY ARE PRODUCED (INTENTIONALLY OR NOT) SO THAT THESE KINDS OF TECHNICAL USAGES OF TRANSPORTATION ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO OCCUR THAN IN PREBUILT/RANDOMLY GENERATED MAPS - THIS IS THE COMMUNITY THAT TEAM 17 ARE AFTER!

Key for figures (I've named the figures for easy reference):

• X = Worm
  
• _ = 'Flat' ground that worms can walk on (although it's rare for large amountd ground to be truly flat in Worms)
  
• / and \ = Incline that worms can walk on
  
• | = Steep incline that worms can walk on (not a wall - sorry about the confusion this may bring)
  
• 0 = Dirt (I.e. not air)
  
• ~ = Water
  
• % = Object (Explicit hazard details provided in my figures)
  
• . = Filler (Air - I needed to add these after I found steam removed a bunch of spaces)

Backwards jump (Enter+Enter)
A backwards jump would be nessecary in areas where a forward jump is needed to traverse terrain, but due to the limited space it would be very dangerous or time consuming to line up a normal forward-facing jump's initial ground height.

If I'm not mistaken, backward jumps follow a similar arc of the normal jump but propells worms with less distance on the horizontal plane, providing less risk for bouncing off steep inclines that you intend to land on.

I've provided some (NOTE: rather limited in scope AND not exhaustive) visual examples of situations that higher-level players MAY find themselves in that would require the use of the backwards jump from W:A and WWP:

Fig. 1
_ % <--- Mine
0| . . . . . . . . . . \0
0| . . . . . . . . . . |0
0| . . . . . . . . . . |0
. . . . . . . . . . . X|0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Explanation: The worm needs to get to less suicidal ground, without activatating the mine and risking making it's move for naught (a total ♥♥♥♥-up and waste).

Fig. 2
. . . . . . 000
_ . . . . 00 . . . . /
0| . . . . . . . . X/0
. . . . . . . . . . /00
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Explanation: The worm needs to get to the platform above the water (perhaps for a crate in the popular shopper scheme)

NOTE:

• A backwards jump would be MOST PREFERRABLE option - not nessecarily the only!
  
• Moonwalking CAN be essential for the proper execution/preperation of a bacwards jump!
  
• Inputs to adjust air movement may also impact movement after landing. I.e. When holding back to reduce horizontal movement, you may accidently walk the worm off the area you just jumped onto!

Vertical jump (Backspace)
Getting extra height for a parachute in areas where a backflip is inconvenient or dangerous, opening up a direct view to a ninja-ropable wall in awkward or risky positions, setting off a nearby mine located in an area above you without getting closer to it on the horizontal plane, etc.

THIS ACTS MORE AS A UTILITY RATHER THAN A TRADITONAL JUMP, BUT IT CAN BE JUST AS IMPORTANT DUE TO HOW CERTAIN OPTIONS CAN DEPEND UPON EXTRA HEIGHT WITHOUT HORIZONTAL MOVEMENT.

I've provided some (NOTE: rather limited in scope AND not exhaustive) visual examples of situations that higher-level players MAY find themselves in that would require the use of the vertical jump from W:A and WWP:

Fig. 3
00000000000/


______X_
00000000/

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .___
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/000
Explanation: The worm needs to get to the 'island' on the right via use of a parachute:

• A normal jump out would give less height and horizontal distance (with wind's impact on the use of a parachute in consideration)
  
• Assuming backflip and vertical jumps are the same as W:A and WWP the backflip would move the worm slightly away from the intended direction or possibly into the water if the parachute attempt fails unlike the vertical jump.
  [8] b]Assuming backflip and vertical jumps are the same as W:A and WWP

[/b] the backflip may also cause the worm to hit the ceiling due to it providing more vertical movement than the vertical jump, which could easily cause issues when using a parachute making the vertical jump an even more distinctly better option in smaller caverns with a similar scenario.

Fig. 4 - Please exuse the limitations imposed by ASCII art to properly display this example
00000
00
. . . .__
. __/00
. /00
0___
0000\__
0000000|X
~~~~~~~~~
Explanation: The worm needs to get a rope into an area that is currently blocked off by a ledge without fancy rope tricks (Sorry - this is the only example that I can think of at 10PM) - A backflip may cause the worm to bounce/slide (or just directly fall) into the water if they miss the rope.
This is a crappy example, but it's use can come into play.

Edit details - I needed to modify the figures so that they actually could be viewed due to the forum posts automatically removing excess spaces

[Dr Crazii]

Personally, when it comes to jumping mechanics I have the following opinion:

• People should be punished for a bad setup from a jump, as adjusting your movement mid-air isn't generally all that hard as some people may think and positioning is a key factor in this game that shouldn't be simplified (else you've dumbed down one of the core mechanics of the game in the same way Worms: Forts Under Seige did).
  
• In the terms of worm movement, the more options, the better (so I would like to see all 4 types of jumping)
  
• Worms 4: Mayhem and Worms Ultimate Mayhem have the option to do a backflip OR a frontflip - perhaps that could be implemented into Worms W.M.D. while penalizing the 'frontflip' so that it can provide different options in a similar manner to backwards jumps being compared to normal jumps!

[Tilen]

When I get home I'm making this about religion.

[Dr Crazii]

Originally posted by Tilen:

When I get home I'm making this about religion.

Oh, geez. I hope I wasn't adding to the problem (if there is a problem).
*Hides in the corner*

[Dr Crazii]

I took a break from study and decided to write that massive column.
Geez... perhaps not the best way to relax...