The AI is cheating!

[The Ironguard]

So i just realized something, which explains why some of the space battles have been so tough. As the empire, i can deploy 20 points of ships at a time. However, the AI can deploy more! I just did a head count, and in my last engagement, where both sides had about 50-100 points of fleet, the AI was able to deploy 15 corellian gunships (for a total value of 30 points) where i could only deploy 20 points at a time.

No bloody wonder some of these space battles feel tough, when the opponent can literally deploy 50% more ships.

[joeball123]

At least part of what you're seeing is due to the Rebellion (and the Zann Consortium) getting 25 space tactical population while the Empire only gets 20, presumably to balance the Empire getting "free" TIEs with most of its big ships while the other factions need to bring in their fighters separately. Another possible contributor to this is the game's somewhat heavy-handed implementation of defender's advantage - freespawn garrison units don't count against population limits, so if you mistook Corellian Corvettes for Corellian Gunships (or lumped the two types together in your count) and were attacking a level 3+ space station you might expect to see as many as 14 on the field simultaneously, plus a non-garrison fighter squadron or one-pop hero unit and whatever other garrison forces the space station spawned.

Also, if you're having issues with unsupported Corellian Gunships as the Empire, remember that (largely) unsupported Corellian Gunships are one of the relatively rare circumstances where your frigates' Boost Weapons ability is actually useful - losing your shields doesn't matter that much because gunship lasers aren't that threatening while gunship missiles bypass your shields anyways, and you need to put out enough DPS to inflict hull damage on or (preferably) destroy gunships before they run away to recharge their shields.

Interdictors are another potential answer to Corellian Gunships due to the Missile Jammer ability, though I find that difficult to use effectively due to limited range and the fact that it immobilizes the Interdictor while active, plus Interdictors aren't exactly very good combatants themselves and at 3 population are a bit awkward to fit into a 20-pop fleet budget when you're using ISDs at 4 population and Tartan Patrol Cruisers / Broadside Cruisers at 2 population. They do pair well enough with FoC Vader (3 pop for Executor), Victory Star Destroyers, or the Death Star, though.


I will further comment that I somewhat often encounter a bug where the player's units are not all correctly counted against the population cap - as the Empire, for example, I can very often have Boba Fett as well as a full 20 population of Star Destroyers and corvettes in space battles even though this 'should' add up to 21 population.

[M.T. Fish]

The only real cheating it does as far as I know is the AI seems to either start with more money or generate more money. I've never been able to confirm it but it's the only way I've ever been able to explain how it pops out fleets of hundreds of ships at a time.

Like the other person said only the Empire is limited to 20 points because it's to balance out their carriers. The Empire CAN actually go over this limit using the Death Star's reinforcements and Vader, who even in the expansion is always deployed at the start of a battle and will give you 21 points in vanilla and 23 in Forces but his points block your reinforcements.

[The Ironguard]

well, it seems like hero units and officers don't count towards the deployment cap. I've had both an officer and vader in the same fleet along with 20 points worth of deployed fleet.

[M.T. Fish]

Originally posted by The Ironguard:

well, it seems like hero units and officers don't count towards the deployment cap. I've had both an officer and vader in the same fleet along with 20 points worth of deployed fleet.

Naval commanders only use the global cap, not the battle cap, and their effects do not stack so only use one per fleet or they will block you from building ships.

Vader uses one point in vanilla, three in Forces. He will always deploy with your starting units and might even block your reinforcements by still using cap after other units die.

Ground commanders still cost one point in the global and battle caps.

C-3PO and R2D2 don't use any pop cap at all.

[joeball123]

Originally posted by M.T. Fish:

Naval commanders only use the global cap, not the battle cap, and their effects do not stack so only use one per fleet or they will block you from building ships.

The other thing with fleet commanders is that, if you do bring a bunch of them with you, they all get put on one ship at the start of the battle and can't get called in as reinforcements if you do something to get around that (e.g. by putting a fighter squadron in the 'vanguard' position in FoC), so bringing more than one usually doesn't even give you 'spares' in case of losses, with the exception being major hero fleet commanders who have their own ships.

Originally posted by M.T. Fish:

Originally posted by The Ironguard:

well, it seems like hero units and officers don't count towards the deployment cap. I've had both an officer and vader in the same fleet along with 20 points worth of deployed fleet.

Vader uses one point in vanilla, three in Forces. He will always deploy with your starting units and might even block your reinforcements by still using cap after other units die.

While that is the way that it should work, my experience is that several heroes often aren't counted correctly (or at all) - I fairly regularly see Colonel Veers counting as either 0 or 2 population in land battles and Boba Fett counting as 0 in space if they're in the initial wave, for example.

[chaosbringer42]

Originally posted by The Ironguard:

snip

Garrison units dont count towards unit limits, giving the defender of a battle far more units than the attacker. Hero units are always either free or cost less than the "same" type of unit if they have a "base" ship.

Originally posted by M.T. Fish:

The only real cheating it does as far as I know is the AI seems to either start with more money or generate more money. I've never been able to confirm it but it's the only way I've ever been able to explain how it pops out fleets of hundreds of ships at a time.

The AI actually gets no monetary cheats at all. Instead it gets free units at the end of every turn (space units granted depend on space station level, ground units are based on factories/barracks built). The AI chooses where all the units are deployed each turn, and tries to deploy them out of player vision if possible.

[The Ironguard]

well, that explains how it can rebuild fleets ridiculously fast when it only has 1 planet left

[M.T. Fish]

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

Originally posted by The Ironguard:

snip

Garrison units dont count towards unit limits, giving the defender of a battle far more units than the attacker. Hero units are always either free or cost less than the "same" type of unit if they have a "base" ship.

Originally posted by M.T. Fish:

The only real cheating it does as far as I know is the AI seems to either start with more money or generate more money. I've never been able to confirm it but it's the only way I've ever been able to explain how it pops out fleets of hundreds of ships at a time.

The AI actually gets no monetary cheats at all. Instead it gets free units at the end of every turn (space units granted depend on space station level, ground units are based on factories/barracks built). The AI chooses where all the units are deployed each turn, and tries to deploy them out of player vision if possible.

Wow. I guess that explains why they don't have absurd numbers in Skirmish mode but can throw out 100 point fleets in Conquest. I guess it also explains why they don't do it as often in the late game too.