Toriyama needs to STOP destroying Gohan's character.

[Ralen]

I'm certain many likely know or will know soon enough that Gohan is becoming the new "Yamcha" of Dragon Ball. In case you didn't already read the prequel manga to Revival of F, spoiler ahead:

Due to no longer keeping up with his training, Gohan is no longer capable of going SSJ2 or achieving his mystic form. In Revival of F, he struggles just to achieve SSJ1. It's worth noting, only a short time before was Gohan at peak performance and reached mystic form against Beerus in BoG. This is at most less than a year later.

You may ask what is the problem with this? Isn't Gohan supposed to be a scholar now? This may be true, but "training" has nothing to do with achieving SSJ.

If you remember, every time someone achieved SSJ, they were going through a traumatic event and were physically exhausted. Goku witnesses Frieza kill Krillin. Future Trunks watches Future Gohan die. Vegeta barely survives a meteor shower. Gohan witnesses Cell kill Android 16. Every transformation (disregard Goten and Kid Trunks nonsense) was based on reaching a certain mental state and level of anger.

What we have in RoF is Toriyama essentially retconning how SSJ works and suggesting "training" is the only factor. If this were the case, and Vegeta has stayed mostly on par with Goku, why can't he go SSJ3? Yes, I know ancient warrior training in the otherworld and blah blah blah. The point is Toriyama is being inconsistent. Are these transformations achieved either because of the mental state or because of training?

My only hope is that "Dragon Ball Super" won't be entirely fan service for Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ God SSJ forms. Gohan is a great character and there is absolutely no reason why his character, which was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku during the Buu Saga in mystic form, should now be reduced to barely going SSJ. Does this mean he's on par with Goten and Kid Trunks now?

Post your thoughts and what you want the future of Gohan to look like in this new age of Dragon Ball anime.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Nirvash:

-snip-

GT is in a pretty interesting situation right now. In many ways one could argue Super is a reboot with the obvious reason that there is no SSJGSSJ form in GT, Beerus and Whis don't exist, and obviously we even see Frieza in Hell playing a role in that series with no apparent new form from the movie. However, we also see elements where it could still exist with Pilaf and friends still attempting to obtain the Dragon Balls, which is how GT began.

On the timeline, Super still takes place before GT begins. Super may not even actually go beyond the last episode of Z in terms of the timeline (Kid Trunks and Goten are 18 and Pan is a little girl). GT begins five years after the last episode of Z if I remember correctly. I have no idea how long Super will be or how many episodes Toei plans on creating. I'm assuming they'll at least get to RoF, but not sure how far after that.

I seriously doubt Super will be anywhere as long as Z or even Kai. I'm not even sure it will be as long as GT, but I don't know what Toei's plans are. If I had to guess, I doubt Super will go beyond the last episode of Z. That time period is probably what Toriyama wanted to explore as it was awkward just going from the Buu Saga and then skipping a few years into the future to end the series. They'd still have room to elaborate further post-Z as there is still a five year gap between the end of Z and GT.

As you said, I think the perception of GT is very different in Japan compared to the rest of the world. I don't believe it has the same negative perception the west gives it and I've never heard Toriyama outright denounce the show as he seemed to be content with it. All I've ever heard him state on the matter is that it was a side story to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, but a continuation of that story as he never considered anything post-Z. Toei obviously created GT so I'd only see them retconning it if they saw an actual value in doing so.

Again, I think it really matters more how the Japanese audience views it as Toei isn't getting a dime from the rest of the world, at least right now. Their ratings are solely based on how well the show does in Japan. Toei just gets a licensing fee from Funimation and any other third party companies who buy the rights to dub and distribute in other regions. I'd assume they are making more money now than they were 15 years ago when they were first licensing the rights to dub the show.

If Dragon Ball Super were to tank and fail in Japan, it wouldn't matter what the rest of the world thinks. Toei would just cancel the show and it would be done. So honestly, it really matters if Dragon Ball is still even relevant in Japan, as ultimately they own the rights to the franchise and they decide if any more series actually get made.

I think the only reason the rest of the world has really played a role is because of the games. Due to Dragon Ball not being exposed to people outside of Japan until the late 90s early to early 2000s, the show gained mass popularity again ten years after it had been off the air. I think the games since then have largely kept it relevant as it's one of the few Japanese-made games that consistently continues to get English VO and the like retelling the same battles of Z over and over.

So really, I think the international market plays a larger role in terms of the games and how they are made more so than the anime series itself, which really is reliant almost entirely on the Japanese audience. Toei is based only in Japan and they produce anime only for the Japanese. That is their focus and really who they ultimately depend on for revenue to continue to operate. I'd really be interested to see how much they actually make in terms of licensing fees, as Bandai Namco (another big Japanese company) clearly publishes the games and takes quite a bit of money itself.

In truth, we were never really stuck in the Buu Saga anyway. The last few episodes of Z take place quite some time after the Buu Saga. Pan is introduced. Kid Trunks and Goten all are grown up. Uub is brought in for the first time (obviously he's reincarnated Kid Buu). Goku is also substantially stronger, although it's never clear by how much (Uub is supposed to be as strong as Kid Buu and Goku can fight him in base form, although Uub isn't fully trained until the beginning of GT). So at least by the last episode of Z it seems Goku is without a doubt the strongest fighter on Earth again (he definitely is by GT), as Gohan has already thrown in the towel and may not even be able to go mystic form by this time (Super already shows he already lost his ultimate ability and even SSJ2 with no indication he'll get them back).

But really in a lot of ways the last episode of Z is the precursor to GT, even if it wasn't planned at the time. I'm more interested to see how Super will actually not retcon the last few episodes of Z, given GT was based solely off of those episodes with some throwbacks to Dragon Ball.

Either way, I'd say this is an exciting time to be a Dragon Ball fan rather than a scary time. By the time I was born, Dragon Ball was already in full swing in Japan. GT was off the air before I was even ten and Toei literally didn't do anything with the Dragon Ball property (outside of the games) for 17 years (the last DBZ film about Dragon Ball was released in 1996 with BoG being released in 2013). It's honestly incredible Super exists at all and is actually happening given an almost two decade gap since the last DBZ film, so at the very least I'm curious to see what Toriyama and Toei does with it.

[Nirvash]

Well I say we were stuck in the Buu saga because even after GT, everything kept going back to it. With the OVAs, and even the games. Less and less of the games are including GT content because they know it's not as popular, and Xenoverse is only of the very few games to ever create it's own content.

In terms of the life of super, we know it's going beyond Revival. They've been forshadowing other threats for awhile, even showing a new villain just before the Revival arch began. GT had 64 episodes. So far Super is at 20. I imagine by 30-35, they'll be done with Freiza and from then on it will be all new material. Because of the nature of the new villains, we'll probably be taking a break from earth for awhile, unless that's where he decides to go. From that point on, the life of the show will be based on ratings, marketing, etc. Because we can assume GT is going to be mostly ignored, it means there's nothing in the way of Super going forward. After Freiza, there's the 1 new villain, aswell as 1 other speculated return of an older existing character, which alone could carry the show for a dozen episodes each. So it might end around the same time as GT if they run out of ideas, or stop doing as well as they have been recently. But as it sits right now, the potential looks like around 100 episodes.

Not to mention they could always take certain characters or events from GT and repurpose them into Super. Just like how alot of the movies do things that contradict the official canon, GT could be that movie situation for Super. If they were smart, they'd eventually include the final episodes of Z into the story, and restablish Uub as a character, and continue on from there with all of the new stuff in place. If you think about it, Z has a large time skip every saga, so, if Super follows the same methods, there might even be 1 or 2 time skips that exist there. It all depends on if they can keep their current pace up.

I personally think GT would have had alot more potential if they didn't make Goku the only character who does anything. And all of the flaws of GT are things that now have a space to be fixed and improved upon. Not turning Goku into a kit, not making Pan an annoying little child who's only purpose is to yell "GRAYNPAW" all the time, and not dropping the ball on the buildup of Uub. I feel like Super will surely outlive GT, and approach Kai. Though it's also completely possible that it goes longer than Z, if they keep the ratings up. Hell, One Piece has over 700 episodes, and I personally found that show boring. Anything is possible from this point on.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Nirvash:

-snip-

I think Bandai avoids putting GT in games more so because it's controversial and not necessarily a matter of popularity. The nature of the show just leaves the fan base divided as some are fine with it and others hate it. Also, it's just easier and likely cheaper to focus entirely on DBZ, as everybody more or less loves that series, so nothing to worry about. Honestly, and it's just my personal opinion, but the storytelling in Xenoverse is actually better than most of the storytelling in any of the Dragon Ball series, which I found to be surpisingly shocking. The amount of depth and care that went into the story was very well-done.

Again, I think Super is more constrained by the end of Z than it is by GT. Super takes place between the Buu Saga and the end of Z. There is still only so much they can do as Toei doesn't want to actually invalidate DBZ in the process. I honestly would be surprised if Super gets all the way to the end of Z anyways (it certainly won't get to the timeline GT is in), but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

One major reason I'm skeptical of how far Super will actually go is because SSJGSSJ is supposed to be the final transformation that is explored. Goku and Vegeta aren't supposed to go higher than that, even in Super, and largely transformations are plot devices for new villains and new threats. Aside from fusion into Vegito or Gogeta (who wasn't even created by Toriyama), I just think the nature of the previous series places a limit on what Super can do without new transformations introduced.

I really don't believe we'll see the large time gaps in Super that we saw in DBZ. Again, the main component that drove DBZ for so long was transformations. Goku getting kaioken, SSJ. Gohan getting SSJ2. Goku getting SSJ3. Every new villain and encounter introduced a new transformation that the hero achieved to save the day. This was largely the case with GT as well once we get to the Baby Saga, with Super 17 being a bit of an odd exception.

I really think Toei is trying to play primarily off of nostalgia while offering some new stuff that Toriyama has approved. We'll see how long they plan to keep Super going, but I just can't see it being longer than GT, let alone getting near 100 episodes. That number suggests they would plan on Super getting near as long as Dragon Ball Kai, which I really doubt they have that kind of material to support such a long run.

DBZ was unusual given Toriyama just wanted to keep adding more and more sagas. That's not typical for an anime, with only a few others such as One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach having ridiculously long runs. I think GT's run is more practical for how long Super could be, but I'm even skeptical the show will go that long. I just really believe the meat of the show was meant to cover BoG, RoF, and then they'll explore some adventures after that.

Again, GT is divisive. I didn't have a problem with Goku being turned into a kid as it was paying homage to Dragon Ball. I actually thought it was interesting how crucial of a role Pan had in GT, even if she was ultimately rendered useless (she did help Goku reach SSJ4 though). I just wouldn't get your hopes up too high that this is some sort of renaissance of Dragon Ball.

I seriously doubt Super will ever be longer than Z, largely because Toriyama isn't writing it. One Piece's author is just a nutcase who can't stop telling his story. That's not the norm. Toriyama largely burnt out on Dragon Ball decades ago and has only shown a little interest getting back involved, but not enough of an effort to really make me believe we will get a lot of Dragon Ball in the future. I really see Super as just an extension of Z with a few more sagas being added just to fill in the large gap between the Buu Saga and the end of Z. Maybe Toei has grand plans beyond that, but I just wouldn't hope and expect too much.

[Nirvash]

Well the transformations thing being plot devices was really a product of Toriyama being tired of writing for it. There have been many interviews and such where he forgets alot of stuff. And not little stuff either. Launch wasn't in Z at all aside from the very beginning, and the very end, because, in Toriyamas words "I forgot who she was". That is slightly forgiveable because Launch didn't do much anyway. But there were other instances of this stuff happening. I know there's one story of him drawing something post-GT, it might have been animation storyboarding for one of the OVAs, and he colored Android 18's hair purple. When confronted with this, his reaponse was something along the lines of "Isn't that the one from the future?". Then there's another case where he didn't know SSJ2 and SSJ3 were different things, probably because SSJ1 and 2 are so similar for everyone but Gohan.

It's hard to find these examples with total clarity because alot of it is stuff from Japanese magazines and that sort of thing. Though one alot (relatively) of people know about is how in the past few years, Toriyama talked about his frustrations with producing Z, because Goku's character was portrayed all wrong, and he was never intended to be heroic, and he just enjoys fighting, and that Toei added the heroic touches to his character. This goes along with the previously mentioned aspect of story elements being put into place well in advance, and then changing at the last minute. Every time Goku died, he was planned to stay dead. Every time Gohan got stronger, he was meant to become the main character. That Toriyama had to keep making these changes (even if he later on decided they were for the better), and that Goku was misrepresented is alot of why he became fatigued of it. So when he had to make alot of progress for beating a particularly mean villain, creating a new base line of power was the simplest way to do it. There are lots of other action oriented anime that have gone on longer than Z without always resorting to this solution. Just because that's always been the case in Z doesn't mean it has to stay that way. That's why we're getting 2 new forms (god and super god) over 30ish episodes. If Bluper Saiyan is meant to be the "final" level, then they're already planning different ways to move the story along. After nearly 20 years, they wouldn't purposely plan on a short series for Dragonball, and the length will ultimately be based on popularity. Just like Z was, only this time they'll be ready for it, instead of saying "Well ♥♥♥♥, I guess I have to make more" every saga.

In terms of the last part of Z, I think they'll integrate it in if (ratings permitting) they go long enough. Going just on the Z aspect and not the GT follow up, there's nothing from that part of Z that would really contradict Super, which is lucky it turned out that way. But I have optimism we'll get there. As of 18, Goku and Vegeta have already taken on their new uniforms and started training under Whis, so things are moving right along. At the current pace (so far progress is happening a little faster than you would expect from Z, though that might only be because it's retelling movies in longer forms), there's plenty of room for things to change. For example, it was very clever in my book that they didn't even show Goten or Trunks at all in Revival, because that's what everyone would be most curious about in this point in time. And if you think about it, them arriving at Beerus' home far away to train for a long time gives them a perfect setpiece to start changing characters design and institute a time skip when Freiza comes back. They already did this in subtle ways with Krillin and Tien (and Yamcha but ya know) by giving their designs slight tweaks. So there's a good chance once Super reaches and passes that point, Goten and Trunks will age some. Maybe not full grown like the end of Z, but they'll be closer, and subsequently less annoying.

Of course we won't know if any of this is true until it does or doesn't happen, but, they have the perfect positioning to start advancing characters forward. They didn't change Vegeta and Goku's outfits just for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles. Clearly it's meant to be a change that creates it's own identity, much like GT goku was darker skin with the blue Gi. Let's also remember the forshadowing from BoG, that there's 7 other universes, and a god of destruction for each. And so far we only know of 2 of those gods. That's 5 more already planned villains at a god level, and that doesn't count Freiza with his Arch. Who knows, maybe Gohan will have to take one of those on. All in all, I see where they have planned for this series to be able to last a long time. If the ratings hold up, it'll keep going. I mean, how did One Piece get to over 700 episodes? Someone's watching it, buying the merchandise, and keeping it successful enough to go that far. While I don't see super going for 700 episodes, I do have confidence that it will go on long enough to be more fondly remembered than GT. Meanwhile I hope we get a Xenoverse sequal to include all this stuff.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Nirvash:

-snip-

Oh yes. I'm aware of Toriyama's infamous "memory" and forgetting some of the most key elements of his own show. I still don't really know if I believe any of that. I just don't think he really cares about the canon or continuity that much. I just think he likes to write stories, which is why he had his team create the Dragon Ball Encyclopedia to start organizing everything.

Really, I just think Toriyama was in over his head. I don't believe he could ever adjust to the popularity of Dragon Ball and the demand for it. He literally just burnt himself out, because the quality (in my opinion) dropped off after the Frieza Saga. The pinnacle of Z was when Goku went SSJ for the first time. It was the only time we saw this care-free, good-natured soul become somewhat of a bad character. Goku didn't even care about defeating Frieza to try and save the planet, he just wanted to fight Frieza at his full power. He lost all of his senses because the transformation has such a profound affect on his being.

Of course, Toriyama dropped that interesting caveat really quickly when he rationalized the meeting between Goku and Future Trunks as being "well you can train the aggression out of the transformation." So really, that was the dropping off point for me and after that DBZ had some moments, but it really just never was as epic as the first time Goku went SSJ. I don't know what Toei plants to do different with Super. With only SSJG and SSJGSSJ to work with, they'd have to change the tradition of the series in order to keep it moving forward.

At the same time, transformations and escalating power levels is why many actually love DBZ. People love when Goku reaches a new ridiculous level to fight an impossibly overpowered enemy. If Toei changes that element, it's almost not even DBZ anymore, which I think could hinder the show. Now I'm not saying that wouldn't be for the best, but having to continue the legacy of Z isn't easy, and GT had mixed results trying to live up to that legacy.

Perhaps consistency and continuity will be better as Toriyama isn't directly involved, but again I'm just skeptical how much material they'll have and if they are just winging this, quality will drop off anyways overtime. The only thing that could have been problematic with the end of Z was Goku's power level, which could be explained by jumping dramatically due to SSJG giving him a new base of power in his normal state. Otherwise, Toriyama didn't really do anything crazy so Super can largely do what it wants.

Yeah I think Goten and Kid Trunks have potential. I never really liked them in Z because they just really didn't fit, especially with being able to go SSJ. Gotenks was kind of amusing, but again still a bit ridiculous. It would be nice to see them when they are more grown up and mature, maybe around the age Gohan was during the Cell Saga. It was always a tease how Goten suggested to SSJ4 Goku in GT how he and Trunks could fuse into Gotenks, but Goku decided against it because they wouldn't stand a chance.

Well you could argue the changing of Goku's gi is also a plot device, as it changed substantially throughout Z based on who is mentor was and then he eventually just went with his own style. It makes sense that he is wearing Whis' symbol, and if Super goes long enough I'm sure he'll go back to another gi where he is his own mentor again.

It would be an interesting dynamic if the Z-fighters each had to fight one god. Of course, with Beerus not even being the strongest one, it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense for anyone except Goku and Vegeta to be able to take them on. However, maybe that could provide a chance for Gohan to kick back into training and at least be somewhat on equal footing with Vegeta and his father again. I honestly believe he deserves that.

Well certainly One Piece has done well, but you could also attribute its longevity just to the author of the manga going on and on. If Toriyama had that endurance, I'm sure DBZ could have gone on forever. As far as how it will be received, well I think that will largely depend on when it's aired overseas. How its perceived in Japan won't really matter. Whether the rest of the world likes it will be the true question. I'm not sure if XV2 will even touch Super, given we don't even know how long the series will be. At most, I can see it covering Beerus and Frieza, but who knows about anything after that.

Presumably DIMPS and Bandai are already beginning work on XV2 and what they are changing from the first game, so there is only so much of Super they can cover should they include it. Given how they treated GT with short, quick missions, I'm not sure if Super would be treated the same way as DBZ is still the jewel of the franchise. But with only Japan technically seeing Super currently, it may not really be included at all honestly. Only time will tell.

[Nirvash]

Well the beauty of modern games (though usually also the bane) is updates. Xenoverse was basically the DBZ game people have waited over a decade for, and while it's flawed and limited, it has the best baseline for what a DBZ game is. If rumours are true that Xenoverse is recycled content from a Korean MMO, then chances are if they're doing a whole sequal, that it will be all original content and an expansion of the character system. It also gives them a space to correct certain features. Not only that, but again, updates. So, let's say XV2 comes out. It includes more Dragonball property (going deeper into ODB, movies, and GT), and a better all around setup. Clothing not having stats, not being gender or race restricted, all being color changeable, and other aesthetic things like hair changing based on SSJ level.

Now, let's also assume XV2 comes with the Freiza arch of Super, because that's all they've completed thus far in the anime, though, chances are much more will be done at that point. Now let's say XV2 does better than the first game (which did REALLY well even by DBZ game standards), and people buy any of the little DLC packs they make. I know in terms of this game, I'd pay extra to have Roshi has a playable character and master. Well, maybe from that point on, they could release expansions with each new Super saga. So let's say the next big villain is named "Craig". Well that saga comes to a close with a season finale (though DB has never followed traditional seasonal structure for shows) and people who still play XV2 want "Craig". Well, then they could create and release a Craig Saga pack. Much like the GT packs in this game, they'd add more story, missions, and general content. Then if interest is maintained in the game a year or so later, they could do another pack for the next arch, and just keep doing that until people quit buying.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Nirvash:

-snip-

Without a doubt. DBXV was really the DBZ game I always wanted, for the most part. Put in a persistent open world to explore and provide more content than just PQs and PvP (balanced and tweaked) and we'll have something truly special. It's only fitting that DIMPS, who created the original Budokai trilogy, is the one developing XV.

DBXV is the spiritual successor to Dragon Ball Online (DBO). Time Patrol Trunks, Mira, and Towa and the idea of fixing the DB timeline were all borrowed from that game, which Toriyama actually created the original story for in collaboration with the South Korean developer. You can also just see, in general, that XV is more or less an MMO with custom characters, a social hub, PvP, PvE, and even live events (Tenkaichi Budokai).

Definitely I think having a solid base and a proven concept allows for DIMPS to make DBXV2 the game we all really wanted. I don't know if including anything from the original Dragon Ball would make sense, but certainly more elaboration on GT would be nice, in my opinion. Leave the season pass and post-launch content specifically for just adding new characters, maps, or focusing exclusively on DBZ movies.

I think the general principle of the post-launch DLC continuing to support the new sagas of Super is interesting, but I'm not sure that's exactly what Bandai wants to accomplish. More than likely, I'd expect, given previous DBZ game series, that they'd more likely create a DBXV3 with the new Super sagas included, rather than just doing DLC updates later.

For one, Bandai would make a lot more money just releasing an all new game with even better features and improvements. People are also a lot less likely to buy DLC, so having a base game including the latest of Super content would also be more advantageous. While I think the general principle of supporting XV2 for the long term is ultimately right, as it's essentially an MMO, Bandai was already talking about XV2 only months after XV was released.

I think they'd prefer to just keep spawning off sequels as often as they can as it would in the long run just be more profitable, especially with Super reigniting interesting in DBZ. Also, while I think definitely more of the hardcore fans would buy DLC for Super sagas, I don't think the majority of DBZ fans necessarily would.

Many just want to do the classic, iconic battles. Whether it's Vegeta vs Goku, Frieza vs Goku, Cell vs Gohan, Buu vs Goku, etc. Until Super is released overseas, awareness and general interest in Super is always going to be fairly limited. I think Bandai is just better off continuing to focus primarily on Z, a bit more emphasis on GT, and then adding Super elements here and there.

They definitely can at least do the Beerus and Golden Frieza sagas as the movies were already localized overseas. I just don't think doing separate post-DLC would really be that profitable and I think interest wouldn't be as great. Make a brand new game and include it as a supplement to the Z stuff and people are more likely to play it.

[DeepoDerDeomancer]

So, I've read up to page 3 (didn't read what you guys were talking abot the games).

I just wanted to point out that while I don't neccessarily disagree with the direction DBS is going - it's clear as day that some things are just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
I dunno if DBS will take a different approach as RoF but the powerlevel of both Piccolo and Gohan is way to low.

The guy that Piccolo struggles to take out in RoF (Shesami ?) is said to have the powerlevel of Dodoria. Dodoria had a powerlevel of 30-50k if we are generous. Piccolo's powerlevel during the Cell Saga is around 5-10x that of 100% Freeza (1.2 million) - not even including Buu saga at that point. So how in hell is a guy with 50k stronger than someone with over 500 million? (not even regarding Buu saga - again)

I've similiar issues with Gohan. He's the strongest character at the end of Cell games with around 20 billion (SSJ2). Even if the tone down those infalted numbers in Buu saga and add Mystic Gohan to the equation - which should atleast be around 5x stronger than his SSJ2 (in DBZ even more) - he should be able to fight on par with Final Form Freeza in RoF. Despite not training. Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku (~80 billion)

Untrained Mystic Gohan is prpbably weaker than SSJ3 Goku in DBS. But he should still be around 500-1000x stronger than 100% Freeza (Namek). Freezas final form is 100x stronger than his 1st Form. So in order to lose to Freeza's 1st Form, Freeza would have to raise his power level by around 5,000,000% in those 4 month (or 50,000x) to be on a similiar power level and even more to 1-hit Gohan.
So even if Gohan was in base form (hard to tell) it's still around 2,000-10,000x to be on his level. 2,000 would imply he's weaker than Piccolo (during Cell Games) which he isn't. So the number must be a lot higher.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису TrEffN!X:

-snip-

Well, part of the problem with your analysis is Toriyama threw out power levels after the Frieza saga. Once Goku hit SSJ1, which made his power level over a million, Toriyama stopped even measuring those level as he said ultimately it was pointless for the progression of the show.

What's kind of odd is that in RoF Frieza remarks that if he trains for four months he'll be able to attain a power level of 1.2 million, which doesn't seem to be in line with the inflation of power levels at all. Obviously, full powered Golden Frieza is even too powerful for Super Saiyan Blue to defeat (besides the whole fact Frieza wasn't used to the transformation and lost it).

Piccolo struggling in RoF didn't make any sense at all. Unlike Gohan, Piccolo never stopped training. While he may have been left in the dust after the Cell Saga, he should certainly be more than enough to defeat any of Frieza's men. It doesn't make any sense at all he would need Gohan, who hasn't trained in months and lost SSJ2 and mystic form, to go SSJ1 just to help him.

As far as Gohan, as I said earlier, his decline doesn't make any sense. BoG is a matter of months before RoF and you are telling me in that time he has lost his mystic form and SSJ2? That's just ridiculous. Toriyama just wanted Gohan out of the way so Goku and Vegeta would share the spotlight. There is no other explanation for his sharp decline in power level. Gohan literally was the strongest character before Goku and Vegeta reached SSJG and mastered it so they could reach SSJB.

[DeepoDerDeomancer]

Цитата допису Ralen Stargrazer:

-snip-

Well, the way I see the 1.2 million is that his base form is meant. Which would mean his base form is as strong or stronger than his final form during Namek.
While Toriyama threw out power levels he puts a lot of empathy on base forms and transformations. Since transformatios are mostly power multipliers it better to train your base form and master it than trying to achieve higher ssj. That's probably why Vegeta's base form and ssj2 in BoG seems a lot stronger than Goku's. And similiar reasons are given by Whis as to why they need to master their ki instead of training in ssj.

But given that approach is makes no sense that Gohan "lost" ssj2 and mystic form after BoG withint month because that shouldn't be a matter of training. Even if his ssj2 would be weaker than Vegeta's ssj1 in RoF there just no logical explaination as to why his charakter turned out that way.

While I get that Gohan isn't intented to be the strongest anymore there's enough room to keep him strong. In my opinion RoF could have been way better if ssj2/mystic Gohan would fight FFF and struggle which would than prompt Goku/Vegeta to interfere. That would have been a great remark to show just how gifted Frieza and his race are which would explain why Beerus was shocked to hear that Freeza died (BoG).

I just hope DBS takes a different approach to the situation but the last episode doesn't seem to confirm that.

[Igris]

well if gohan wants to be relevant in a fight. then he needs to start training again instead of only reading books.

hell look at db super the team that goes with beerus is: goku, vegeta, mr buu, piccolo and a new not named yet character that beerus considered the strongest he ever fought.

if piccolo gets picked over gohan, then you know gohan has sunk low.
and even piccolo got nerfed in ROF where a random mook owned him.

gohan won't be relevant unless they completely change his character and suddenly make him give a damn about training and fighting.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису TrEffN!X:

-snip-

That's possible, although the movie is far too vague to give any indication of what Frieza actually meant. However, that's the most rational understanding and probably what Toei intended by that remark.

Vegeta only surpassed Goku's SSJ3 power level briefly because of his furious mutation when Bulma was hit by Beerus. This is ultimately how Vegeta reaches the power of a super saiyan god while Goku achieved it through the ritual in BoG. They both train subsequently with Whis in order to master it as their new base and transform their SSJ1 forms into SSJB.

Exactly. At the beginning of the Buu Saga, even though Gohan has not gone SSJ2 in years, we see he is still able to execute the transformation. It is weaker than his SSJ2 transformation when he fought Perfect Cell, but he is still able to go SSJ2 because it wasn't based on training but rather a state of mind. Again, more indication Toriyama doesn't care about the continuity and constantly creates inconsistencies in the lore.

The movie would have been interesting if Gohan still had SSJ2 and his mystic form. This could have forced Frieza to go to his original final form just to beat Gohan, eventually leading to Goku and Vegeta forcing him to go to his golden transformation.

Honestly, I think Super is just filling in the blanks for BoG and RoF. I don't believe Toei is going to really retcon either movie and they just wanted to further explain what was happening as Super was only an idea at the time and not given the green light.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Doctor Killjoy:

well if gohan wants to be relevant in a fight. then he needs to start training again instead of only reading books.

hell look at db super the team that goes with beerus is: goku, vegeta, mr buu, piccolo and a new not named yet character that beerus considered the strongest he ever fought.

if piccolo gets picked over gohan, then you know gohan has sunk low.
and even piccolo got nerfed in ROF where a random mook owned him.

gohan won't be relevant unless they completely change his character and suddenly make him give a damn about training and fighting.

Again, training was never a factor in terms of transformations. There is no reason Gohan can't go SSJ2 or mystic form other than "Toriyama logic" which means he just retcons the character and makes up nonsense.

If training was really the only catalyst for power levels, Vegeta would be the strongest character in the show, by far, as he always trains harder than everybody else, even Goku. The simple fact is that there is more to power levels and transformations than just training, even if Toriyama is trying to retcon essentially all of DBZ.

[Meya]

Hey Yamcha is still a step up from Raditz and maybe even Krillin.

[Ralen]

Цитата допису Neliel Tu:

Hey Yamcha is still a step up from Raditz and maybe even Krillin.

Yamcha is definitely not a step up from Krillin. RoF has Tien explain how Yamcha and Chaotzu are too weak and he left them home. Krillin, while he has been irrelevant since the Frieza Saga, at least shows he is still very much capable of fighting.

As far as being better than Raditz, if we are talking about the Raditz at the beginning of Z, probably? I'm sure Raditz has probably been training in Hell, so he's likely still stronger than Yamcha anyway.

Either way, Yamcha was written out of the show long ago so I never expected to see him return. Gohan's decline, however, was unusual and rapid without little reason.