Toriyama needs to STOP destroying Gohan's character.

[Ralen]

I'm certain many likely know or will know soon enough that Gohan is becoming the new "Yamcha" of Dragon Ball. In case you didn't already read the prequel manga to Revival of F, spoiler ahead:

Due to no longer keeping up with his training, Gohan is no longer capable of going SSJ2 or achieving his mystic form. In Revival of F, he struggles just to achieve SSJ1. It's worth noting, only a short time before was Gohan at peak performance and reached mystic form against Beerus in BoG. This is at most less than a year later.

You may ask what is the problem with this? Isn't Gohan supposed to be a scholar now? This may be true, but "training" has nothing to do with achieving SSJ.

If you remember, every time someone achieved SSJ, they were going through a traumatic event and were physically exhausted. Goku witnesses Frieza kill Krillin. Future Trunks watches Future Gohan die. Vegeta barely survives a meteor shower. Gohan witnesses Cell kill Android 16. Every transformation (disregard Goten and Kid Trunks nonsense) was based on reaching a certain mental state and level of anger.

What we have in RoF is Toriyama essentially retconning how SSJ works and suggesting "training" is the only factor. If this were the case, and Vegeta has stayed mostly on par with Goku, why can't he go SSJ3? Yes, I know ancient warrior training in the otherworld and blah blah blah. The point is Toriyama is being inconsistent. Are these transformations achieved either because of the mental state or because of training?

My only hope is that "Dragon Ball Super" won't be entirely fan service for Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ God SSJ forms. Gohan is a great character and there is absolutely no reason why his character, which was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku during the Buu Saga in mystic form, should now be reduced to barely going SSJ. Does this mean he's on par with Goten and Kid Trunks now?

Post your thoughts and what you want the future of Gohan to look like in this new age of Dragon Ball anime.

[Habi16]

QQ more

[Ralen]

Soullester eredeti hozzászólása:

Well true, but still I just don't like 90% of these people all hateing on It and hateing on the new show, we don't even know what's It going to be about.

I for one didn't hate anything about any of the series or moves ETC.

Hell I didn't mind Dragonball Evolution.

If "true fan" means not carrying about the show or its characters, sure. The point is Toriyama made a BIG DEAL throughout DBZ how important Gohan was. This idea that half-saiyan, half-earthling was the ultimate fighter. It makes little sense to just discard the character now because "he doesn't train."

I'm all for new Dragon Ball stuff. However, Toriyama needs to respect his own characters and story before I can respect his work. He hasn't done anything substantial with Dragon Ball in almost two decades. He may have created this, but he still has to prove he has some idea of what he's doing.

[Cruna]

I didn't specially liked the Gohan character. Maybe Toriyama feels the same. Gohan is not really unique and interesting like Vegeta or Goku, or even Picolo. Yeah Gohan is Goku's son, and just a half-sayan. Gohan was trained in his early fighting days by Picolo... cool story. Gohan fought Cell, Buu, whoever, that is all great. But as a character he's not really interesting. He's just a lighter version of future Trunks. Goten is another young Goku thing. Of course people love Beerus. Because it's an interesting one. And not so boring.

[Ralen]

Cruna eredeti hozzászólása:

I didn't specially liked the Gohan character. Maybe Toriyama feels the same. Gohan is not really unique and interesting like Vegeta or Goku, or even Picolo. Yeah Gohan is Goku's son, and just a half-sayan. Gohan was trained in his early fighting days by Picolo... cool story. Gohan fought Cell, Buu, whoever, that is all great. But as a character he's not really interesting. He's just a lighter version of future Trunks. Goten is another young Goku thing. Of course people love Beerus. Because it's an interesting one. And not so boring.

I disagree. Outside of Goku's carefree nature, he's a rather simplistic and uninteresting character. He's predictable and will always do the same thing. At least Vegeta actually learns and has changed over the course of the show.

Gohan, on the other hand, is actually probably the most interesting character on the show. For one, he's not obsessed with training and fighting. He actually wants to do something else, yet feels compelled to fight to defend the ones he loves. This tension and mental struggle leads to a much more interesting and dynamic character, unlike his father.

I think it's a waste for Toriyama to just toss this character to the side and focus on the stereotypical and more simplistic ones. Gohan brought passion and meaning to what he was doing. Goku just fights because he likes to fight. It cheapens the experience in my opinion.

[casdarius]

in honesty the whole thing should have been allowed to end at cell the origonal japanese release timeline not the recovered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ timeline. ♥♥♥♥ buu, ♥♥♥♥ everything after cell, its all ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was devised to sell merch. tbh in that matter it should have been allowed to end at the end of the friezan saga because after that saga it felt halfassed and no soul was there nothing amazing happened there was alot of shouting and then infants were able to achieve something that took our main protagonist his entire life to achieve. its pathetic. and gohan is a ♥♥♥♥♥, hes always been a ♥♥♥♥♥, he will always be a ♥♥♥♥♥.

[Ralen]

saxual eredeti hozzászólása:

in honesty the whole thing should have been allowed to end at cell the origonal japanese release timeline not the recovered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ timeline. ♥♥♥♥ buu, ♥♥♥♥ everything after cell, its all ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was devised to sell merch. tbh in that matter it should have been allowed to end at the end of the friezan saga because after that saga it felt halfassed and no soul was there nothing amazing happened there was alot of shouting and then infants were able to achieve something that took our main protagonist his entire life to achieve. its pathetic. and gohan is a ♥♥♥♥♥, hes always been a ♥♥♥♥♥, he will always be a ♥♥♥♥♥.

I agree with everything you said except the Gohan part. Yes, Gohan as a kid was "annoying," but it was the purpose behind his character that was interesting. He was a foil to Goku in many ways and I wish Toriyama had not ended that without cause.

Definitely, DBZ would have been a lot different had it ended after the Frieza Saga. Nothing came close to the level of epicness that was Goku going SSJ for the first time and whooping Frieza. The only reason Revival of F is even relevant is because it's paying homage to the most epic moment of DBZ.

[BacaeStrife]

I'm just gonna say the writer for One Piece and Fairy Tail is slightly superior to Toriyama as a writer, for the simple reason that he's managed to make all the characters in his roster useful. Luffy wouldn't be able to win his fights without the support of his crew half the time. Same with Natsu and his guild. I love DBZ, I really do. But it has its flaws, and Toriyama not being able to make his secondary characters useful is one of them.

[Ralen]

BacaeStrife eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm just gonna say the writer for One Piece and Fairy Tail is slightly superior to Toriyama as a writer, for the simple reason that he's managed to make all the characters in his roster useful. Luffy wouldn't be able to win his fights without the support of his crew half the time. Same with Natsu and his guild. I love DBZ, I really do. But it has its flaws, and Toriyama not being able to make his secondary characters useful is one of them.

Absolutely. One of the greatest themes I think any show can have is no matter how powerful you are, everybody needs a helping hand. Toriyama lost that along the way, thus rendering many of his characters and a lot of potential worthless. I can be optimistic that he'll learn from his mistakes with Dragon Ball Super, but that's doubtful.

[PGHGOD]

I know I am late to this but Gohan is still the strongest character on Earth. He shows that in RoF. Freeza felt the need to kill Gohan to keep from getting in his way. Freeza was still slightly threatened by Gohan. However, it is stupid that they try to justify Gohan can not go Ssj2 or Ultimate in a matter of what was it 6-8 months? When during Beers's first show he was able to go Ultimate? What is even worse is they show him wearing a green workout suit......Why would he even wear that? They tried to justify it by saying he did not have time to change into his Gi.....REAALY?! DBZ had so much depth, Goku gaining new forms, Gohan always just having his moments, Vegeta always getting mad and such, future trunks, etc. In DBS it so stupid. Its not made by Toriyama but he is overseeing it. In DBS its ALL about Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus. DBS also has SO MUCH FILLER. Like more than DBZ. I dont know if they plan on going past RoF but if they do, they better do something about Gohan......This whole 6 months between BoG and RoF doesnt matter, it should have been done AFTER RoF. Why? I can only assume that Goku becomes SsjGSsj while Champa was around. So between Champa and RoF Goku and Vegeta didnt get stronger. Im done with DBS until I see Gohan get his due respect

[Ralen]

PGHGOD eredeti hozzászólása:

I know I am late to this but Gohan is still the strongest character on Earth. He shows that in RoF. Freeza felt the need to kill Gohan to keep from getting in his way. Freeza was still slightly threatened by Gohan. However, it is stupid that they try to justify Gohan can not go Ssj2 or Ultimate in a matter of what was it 6-8 months? When during Beers's first show he was able to go Ultimate? What is even worse is they show him wearing a green workout suit......Why would he even wear that? They tried to justify it by saying he did not have time to change into his Gi.....REAALY?! DBZ had so much depth, Goku gaining new forms, Gohan always just having his moments, Vegeta always getting mad and such, future trunks, etc. In DBS it so stupid. Its not made by Toriyama but he is overseeing it. In DBS its ALL about Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus. DBS also has SO MUCH FILLER. Like more than DBZ. I dont know if they plan on going past RoF but if they do, they better do something about Gohan......This whole 6 months between BoG and RoF doesnt matter, it should have been done AFTER RoF. Why? I can only assume that Goku becomes SsjGSsj while Champa was around. So between Champa and RoF Goku and Vegeta didnt get stronger. Im done with DBS until I see Gohan get his due respect

Being the "strongest character on Earth" doesn't mean a whole lot when he can get whooped by Goku and Vegeta in a matter of seconds. Gohan was the "strongest character," period, at the ending of Cell. He was the first character to reach SSJ2 and he surpassed everybody by a landslide, including his father.

Due to Toriyama rationalizing that Gohan "would be a weak protagonist," he quickly made up a bunch of nonsense that Goku not only attained SSJ2 while he was dead, but also SSJ3 just to make sure he was without a doubt the strongest character. Now, Gohan does shine a little in the Buu Saga obtaining Mystic form, which is more powerful than SSJ3. However, then Toriyama kills him off just so Goku can again save the day with millionth spirit bomb, because he's never strong enough on his own to defeat his enemies.

Honestly, the whole idea Gohan can't reach SSJ2 or Ultimate because he hasn't trained is dumb. Goku reached SSJ and Gohan reached SSJ2 because of their emotions and they were both exhausted beyond their breaking point. Goten and Kid Trunks also reached SSJ, and we know SSJ isn't just a base power level. It's different for every character. It's even worse that Gohan has lost the ability to go SSJ2 and Ultimate in less than a year....

I haven't seen Dragon Ball Super at all, but I've heard it's essentially retconning the two recent movies, which is a bit strange. Toriyama actually did write the overarching story for DBS. What's happened is all the filler is being written by a writer for the TV series and a writer for the manga. Either way, don't count on Gohan being relevant in Dragon Ball ever again.

The fact that Toriyama had to justify why Gohan was a weak character in RoF, which doesn't take place long after BoG, kind of shows how much he cares about the character. Unless you are Goku or Vegeta, everybody else is really irrelevant in this series.

[Igris]

gohan has always been a ♥♥♥♥ fighter.
even with all his power he still would have gotten his ass kicked by ssj3 goku
because goku is the superior fighter. raw power alone is nothing and super buu after absorbing gotenks and piccolo showed this to gohan.

besides gohan never liked fighting to begin with, he will never suceed goku as the protector of earth because he rather sits on his ass and read a book.

[Ralen]

Doctor Killjoy eredeti hozzászólása:

gohan has always been a ♥♥♥♥ fighter.
even with all his power he still would have gotten his ass kicked by ssj3 goku
because goku is the superior fighter. raw power alone is nothing and super buu after absorbing gotenks and piccolo showed this to gohan.

besides gohan never liked fighting to begin with, he will never suceed goku as the protector of earth because he rather sits on his ass and read a book.

Not true. Sure, Gohan has never had the drive his father has to fight, but he's definitely never been a horrible fighter. On the contrary, Gohan was extremely good, which was a large part of the moral dilemma for his character.

Gohan was the dichotomy of Goku and Chi-Chi clashing simultaneously. He had the skills and the talent of his father, yet he had the passion and the dream of becoming an academic like his mother wanted.

Also, I have to disagree about Ultimate Gohan losing to SSJ3 Goku. The simplest reason that Gohan would win by default is that Goku cannot sustain SSJ3 for very long because its an impractical transformation.

Gohan, on the other hand, can sustain his mystic form with relative ease. The limits of Goku maintaining SSJ3 alone would make him lose. Gohan wouldn't even need to physically beat him to win.

As someone said earlier, Toriyama is going to rationalize and obsolete any character he wants because he created them. He hasn't shown Gohan any respect since the end of the Cell Saga, so clearly he's just a worthless character in Toriyama's eyes.

[Grave]

Buff Piccolo. That is all.

[Ralen]

Grave eredeti hozzászólása:

Buff Piccolo. That is all.

Another underrepresented character. Piccolo was mostly relevant until the Cell Saga, then he became background. He ran out of nameks to fuse with, thus the show was hijacked by saiyans to save the day every time. I would like to see Piccolo being more relevant, although he's even less likely to get any attention than Gohan.

[Nirvash]

It was always my understanding that the Mystic form would awaken all of his power without need for transformation. So, having all of his SSJ2 strength, without using the energy or effort to take the body into that form, thus making it more energy efficient. In that it would mean he could transform but it wouldn't really do anything. Further, this mode would be inherently stronger than SSJ2, simply because he could use the full potential of that power without having to build it up in bursts. I could be wrong on this however.

It seems though that the current writer (Toriyama doesn't really do anything anymore, and has entrusted one of his best friends with writing Super and supposedly the movies), is taking efforts to seperate the class of characters now, with the introduction of "bad" gods. So there is no practical way, mathematically that someone like Tien could ever be on par with Goku again, but as long as they give us something lower level in addition to the big baddie, it balances out and lets more characters matter. Thats why I think Revival of F is one of the best DBZ movies period. Buu, Goten, and Trunks (The 3 most annoying characters) are purposely left out, Tien, Roshi, and Krillin get their time to fight and show off alot of impressively animated choreography, and Vegeta gets to kick the ♥♥♥♥ outta Freiza for awhile. The ending, a little dumb, but it's mandatory that every movie villain is defeated via Deus Ex Machina, so that's to be expected.

Gohan specifically, they need to give something to. I understand the reasoning for not making him take over as the main character, but he needs SOMETHING. Like Piccolo giving him a simple speech could change everything. "GOHAN, you have a DAUGHTER now. I understand that you enjoy your new life of peace, but you never know when something like this is going to happen again, so AT LEAST take some free time in the Gravity chamber so your daughter doesn't get killed by a random demon god who decides to show up looking for your father!". Something. Thankfully with Super, there's alot of room for these things to happen. We're on episode 18 now and they're still being released weekly. Once you get passed episode 5, it is pretty good.