If you were Akira Toriyama, what would you retcon about DBZ?

[Ralen]

Besides probably scrapping the Android, Cell, and Buu Sagas, I'd toss SSJ2, SSJ3, and make SSJ4 the new "SSJ2" as well as the final transformation.

Your move... Toriyama.

[Veya]

Pax Augusta eredeti hozzászólása:

Veya eredeti hozzászólása:

You made a thread asking what people would change/get rid of, if most people want to get rid of GT, then people will say they want to get rid of GT, it is kind of the point of the thread.

No. I made a thead about what people would retcon about "DBZ." Feel free to read the title and the OP. GT is not mentioned anywhere as it always leads to the same nonsense due to lack of knowledge on the subject matter. The only ones who keep bringing it up are GT haters who are actually derailing the thread.

When you say "DBZ", people think of all things Dragon Ball related, in fact, you are implying nobody can argue against things from Dragon Ball either, it doesn't matter which part of the series it is from, if it is Dragon Ball, people will talk about in DBZ threads.

What's happening here is people are discussing something you disagree over and over, and you just want them to stop, even if it is very much relevant to the thread.

[Ralen]

KiraTsukasa eredeti hozzászólása:

Future Trunks returns to the future to find that it is still a wasteland despite saving it in the past. That PROVES that the Dragon Ball universe has multiple timelines. Since Toriyama himself states that it is a side story, pretending that GT is a canon occurance of the main timeline is like pretending that all the DBZ fanfiction is canon.

I stated that there is not an alternate timeline for GT, not that there aren't alternate timelines at all. Obviously, there are at least two others as Future Trunks is from one and Cell was from another. Take note that those timelines are VASTLY DIFFERENT from the main timeline, making them alternate for a reason.

While he used the term "gaiden," which is "side story" in Japanese, to actually call GT a side story isn't accurate. A side story is usually a story separate from the original that is happening simultaneously with the original and typically from the perspective of a new protagonist. GT obviously cannot be a side story because it takes place after Z and it is from the perspective of Goku, who has always been the protagonist.

Thus, GT is the true sequel to DBZ. The reason Toriyama tried to make a distinction is because he didn't actually write the story, but it is still the true continuation of the DBZ experience.

[Ralen]

Veya eredeti hozzászólása:

When you say "DBZ", people think of all things Dragon Ball related, in fact, you are implying nobody can argue against things from Dragon Ball either, it doesn't matter which part of the series it is from, if it is Dragon Ball, people will talk about in DBZ threads.

What's happening here is people are discussing something you disagree over and over, and you just want them to stop, even if it is very much relevant to the thread.

You might believe "DBZ" is synonymous with everything, but you would likely be alone in that understanding of the series. DBZ clearly refers to a specific part of the timeline and story. It would be more accurate to refer to the entire experience as "Dragon Ball," as Z and GT are obviously sequels to the original. Thus, calling the thread DBZ clearly pinpoints on one specific area of the story, one in which Toriyama made the most mistakes.

I'm more than happy to discuss why people are wrong about GT... in another thread. This thread is dedicated to how one would fix DBZ if they were Toriyama. We have GT hate threads all the time. This one doesn't need to become one of them.

[ChrisDJ0122]

Instead of Goku beating Buu, i woulda had Goku get absorbed instead of Gohan.

Make Gohan the one to kill off Kidd Buu dunno how tho, probly a Super Kamehameha or something.

My only gripe i have with the DBZ story is how after Cell it makes it look like Gohan will take over the role as the new primary protagonist, and i aproved. I thought that was a great idea, passing the tourch so to speak from father to son, and even the Sayaman stuff wasn't that bad imo and i really liked how he brought back the world tournament. I even liked how Goku came back both for a day and after old kai gave his life for him.

If it were up to me, i would keep it connon till Super Buu gets Gohan, instead absorbing Goku, I'd just have Vegeta and Gohan fuse and get un-fused like Vegito in connon, and release Kid Buu, then have Gohan be the one to beat Kid Buu, have either Goku and or Vegeta help like Fat Buu and Vegeta did for Goku in Connon.

And GT..... I'd have it be Goku, Uub, Gohan, and Videl go on the adventure, make it take place earlier like a year or two after the last chapter (or episode) when Goku starts training Uub. Still keep SSJ4 on Goku and have Gohan get it in place of Vegeta and have a SSJ4 fuse of Goku and Gohan (Hanku? Kuhan? whatever) i don't know too much bout GT as i've only seen parts of it not all of it sooo i dunno if this change would make it bad or what not.

[KiraTsukasa]

Pax Augusta eredeti hozzászólása:

KiraTsukasa eredeti hozzászólása:

Future Trunks returns to the future to find that it is still a wasteland despite saving it in the past. That PROVES that the Dragon Ball universe has multiple timelines. Since Toriyama himself states that it is a side story, pretending that GT is a canon occurance of the main timeline is like pretending that all the DBZ fanfiction is canon.

I stated that there is not an alternate timeline for GT, not that there aren't alternate timelines at all. Obviously, there are at least two others as Future Trunks is from one and Cell was from another. Take note that those timelines are VASTLY DIFFERENT from the main timeline, making them alternate for a reason.

While he used the term "gaiden," which is "side story" in Japanese, to actually call GT a side story isn't accurate. A side story is usually a story separate from the original that is happening simultaneously with the original and typically from the perspective of a new protagonist. GT obviously cannot be a side story because it takes place after Z and it is from the perspective of Goku, who has always been the protagonist.

Thus, GT is the true sequel to DBZ. The reason Toriyama tried to make a distinction is because he didn't actually write the story, but it is still the true continuation of the DBZ experience.

I don't think you understand how multiverse theory works. Multiverse theory states that there are an infinite number of realities where every possible outcome occurs. This could mean that two timelines are vastly different, such as the main Dragon Ball timeline compared to Future Trunks' timeline, or they are completely the same except for one minor change.

Considering that Toriyama declared GT to be a side story, which absolutely DO NOT have to occur parrallel to the rest of the story, and there is no mention of the events of GT in any confirmed continuation of the main timeline, GT is, in fact, an alternate timeline. The timeline of GT would have the same occurances that happened during DBZ, but the main timeline would continue with Pilaf not making Goku a child (or never finding the Dragon Balls to begin with), thus never beginning the events of GT in the first place, and the GT timeline would continue with it's own alternate events.

[Moon Rabbit]

Veya eredeti hozzászólása:

You made a thread asking what people would change/get rid of, if most people want to get rid of GT, then people will say they want to get rid of GT, it is kind of the point of the thread.

No it's really not. The thread asks what would you retcon about Dragon Ball Z.
Dragon Ball Z.
This isn't yet another 'let's argue about GT and canon BS' thread.

[Virus_Kid]

FiachSidhe eredeti hozzászólása:

This isn't yet another 'let's argue about GT and canon BS' thread.

It kind of is now.

[Moon Rabbit]

Pixel_Kid.exe™ eredeti hozzászólása:

FiachSidhe eredeti hozzászólása:

This isn't yet another 'let's argue about GT and canon BS' thread.

It kind of is now.

Well yeah, because people can't be bothered to stay on subject.

[Ralen]

Goku eredeti hozzászólása:

...

While I personally believe Z lost its appeal after the Frieza Saga, I agree it would have been better had Toriyama stuck to his original plan of making Gohan the protagonist. That would have vastly changed various aspects of the Buu Saga. For instance, Gohan wouldn't have become weaker and his SSJ2 transformation would have increased in power since the Cell Saga. Goku and Vegeta would never get SSJ2, and there would be no SSJ3.

Gohan can still train with the Kais and unlock his full potential, but it would be a zenkai boost similar to SSJ God rather than rendering his SSJ/SSJ2 transformations useless. Goku and Vegeta would play support roles for the rest of the saga and Gohan would save the day following his father's footsteps and Chi-Chi would accept Gohan for who he is.

KiraTsukasa eredeti hozzászólása:

...

I'll respond to you one last time since you won't accept reality. Yes, I understand how multiverse theory works. No, DB is not a documentary nor does it attempt to explain science or the unknown. It is a kid's fantasy action manga with little to no depth.

Again, you continue to glance over what GT clearly is, a sequel to Z. It has the same character with clear ties and continuity with where Z left off. That is not a "side story" by any definition. Again, side stories typically focus on a different story from the original, usually happen parallel to it, and have a different protagonist for a different perspective. GT does not fit that description at all.

What you just finished saying made absolutely no sense. You are making up facts to try and invalidate GT. The new films have not questioned GT's legitimacy, but rather further cemented it. Please, don't respond in this thread again if you will not drop this subject. Feel free to believe what you want even if you are completely wrong. Just keep it to yourself.

[robomagon]

Pax Augusta eredeti hozzászólása:

Goku eredeti hozzászólása:

...

While I personally believe Z lost its appeal after the Frieza Saga, I agree it would have been better had Toriyama stuck to his original plan of making Gohan the protagonist. That would have vastly changed various aspects of the Buu Saga. For instance, Gohan wouldn't have become weaker and his SSJ2 transformation would have increased in power since the Cell Saga. Goku and Vegeta would never get SSJ2, and there would be no SSJ3.

Gohan can still train with the Kais and unlock his full potential, but it would be a zenkai boost similar to SSJ God rather than rendering his SSJ/SSJ2 transformations useless. Goku and Vegeta would play support roles for the rest of the saga and Gohan would save the day following his father's footsteps and Chi-Chi would accept Gohan for who he is.

KiraTsukasa eredeti hozzászólása:

...

I'll respond to you one last time since you won't accept reality. Yes, I understand how multiverse theory works. No, DB is not a documentary nor does it attempt to explain science or the unknown. It is a kid's fantasy action manga with little to no depth.

Again, you continue to glance over what GT clearly is, a sequel to Z. It has the same character with clear ties and continuity with where Z left off. That is not a "side story" by any definition. Again, side stories typically focus on a different story from the original, usually happen parallel to it, and have a different protagonist for a different perspective. GT does not fit that description at all.

What you just finished saying made absolutely no sense. You are making up facts to try and invalidate GT. The new films have not questioned GT's legitimacy, but rather further cemented it. Please, don't respond in this thread again if you will not drop this subject. Feel free to believe what you want even if you are completely wrong. Just keep it to yourself.

Personally, I kind of hate Gohan and think Z would have sucked if he had been made the protagonist. If Goku were to stay dead I'd much rather see Vegeta take on that role.

Ultimate Gohan can still go super and he's actually going to in the next movie.

GT is an alternate timeline. XV even describes it as such. The new movies are creating way too many inconsistencies for it to be a continuation of Z. This isn't me hating on GT either, I actually like some parts of it. Future Trunks's timeline is also clearly a continuation of post-Frieza Z, it's also clearly an alternate timeline as events contradicting it came to pass. Same as what's currently happening to GT.

[Ralen]

robomagon eredeti hozzászólása:

...

Well, in fairness, Toriyama never really gave Gohan's character a chance. I'd argue a large reason why he isn't more likable is because he became such a minor and irrelevant character to the story. Goku is a great character, but he had been the main protagonist in all of DB and a large portion of Z. It would have been nice to continue the story from a new perspective. Vegeta wouldn't have made sense due to being the foil to Goku. The original idea Toriyama had was to pass the torch to the next generation.

It's not a question of whether Gohan can still go SSJ/SSJ2 or not. The point is he doesn't need to. The way his mystic form works is it entirely unlocks his ultimate power, thus it far exceeds SSJ or SSJ2 (his mystic form is more powerful than DBZ Goku's SSJ3). Gohan doesn't gain a benefit by actually going SSJ anymore as he has no reason to. As far as why Gohan would go SSJ in the new movie is anybody's guess. Toriyama is known for being forgetful and contradicting his own universe. Either way, Gohan doesn't appear to be a major player in Revival of F.

For one, there is, again, no evidene to support that GT is an alternate timeline. It is not suggested anywhere by any authority, thus holds no weight. XV is a video game, which by its very definition isn't canon. None of the video games are, even DBO. They actually are "what if" scenarios, unlike GT, and typically expand on Z in ways Toriyama generally never had input on. What inconsistencies have the new movies created? I have debunked every theory thrown out and actually supported why the new movies legitimize GT even more.

There are only two clearly defined alternate universes in Dragon Ball. Future Trunks' timeline and Cell's original timeline. The main reason these are clearly "alternate" is because the manga and anime say so. The actual story focuses on the main timeline (events that we see happen). GT is a continuation of the main timeline. It starts five years after the last episode of Z. Everything that happens in GT is a direct result of what happened in the main timeline of DB and DBZ. All of the characters from the main timeline are present in GT.

I'm not asking you to like GT. I don't really care what people think of the series one way or the other. What I am asking you to do is recognize that GT is canon and a direct sequel to Z. The only point of contention GT has is it wasn't written by Toriyama, and that holds little weight as Toriyama decides what is official, and he has stated long ago that GT is official. You can try and rationalize GT being an alternate timeline, alternate universe, or any other kind of nonsense all you want, but none of that is ever suggested or indicated by Toriyama or the Daizenshuu.

[Sayla Massochist]

Me personally....

Probably everything after the Namek Saga. End a series on a high note. Plus the story tellers creed use to be "leave them wanting more" not "keep adding ♥♥♥♥ till the money stops pouring in'.

[Ralen]

Sayla Massochist eredeti hozzászólása:

Me personally....

Probably everything after the Namek Saga. End a series on a high note. Plus the story tellers creed use to be "leave them wanting more" not "keep adding ♥♥♥♥ till the money stops pouring in'.

Why after the Namek Saga? That seems like an odd place to stop as Goku just arrives on Namek and the Ginyu Force is about to take center stage. I agree it's better to leave fans "wanting more," but the story should end in a place that makes sense.

The Frieza Saga, on the other hand, is a definitive ending as it wraps up everything that had been built up since the Saiyan Saga and Raditz arrived to Earth. Anything before that would have just been a cliffhanger.

[Sayla Massochist]

Pax Augusta eredeti hozzászólása:

Sayla Massochist eredeti hozzászólása:

Me personally....

Probably everything after the Namek Saga. End a series on a high note. Plus the story tellers creed use to be "leave them wanting more" not "keep adding ♥♥♥♥ till the money stops pouring in'.

Why after the Namek Saga? That seems like an odd place to stop as Goku just arrives on Namek and the Ginyu Force is about to take center stage. I agree it's better to leave fans "wanting more," but the story should end in a place that makes sense.

The Frieza Saga, on the other hand, is a definitive ending as it wraps up everything that had been built up since the Saiyan Saga and Raditz arrived to Earth. Anything before that would have just been a cliffhanger.

Well thats what I meant. Namek, Freiza. Guess they are not the same thing but eh.


Point is I always felt that the story should of ended with the Dragon telling them that Goku did not want to come back just yet. That is sort of what he did in Dragonball. While he had an acceptable ending he left the door open for more with Goku and ChiChi leaving on Nimbus to get married. Sort of one of those "The End?" type deals.

[Ralen]

Sayla Massochist eredeti hozzászólása:

Well thats what I meant. Namek, Freiza. Guess they are not the same thing but eh.

Ah okay. It can be quite confusing. Sagas generally refer to a specific set of episodes, while arcs deal with an overarching villain. I definitely agree though that after the Frieza arc was done DBZ should have ended. I think part of the problem is Toriyama loved his own story too much and as he continued the story it became less and less cohesive overtime.

DBZ was just too long. You can clearly see Toriyama had no clue how to wrap up DBZ as the ending really wasn't an ending. That's part of the reason these new films are a nice addition to DBZ because it is bringing more closure to what was an over bloated series.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_sagas

Yeah. I don't mind stories that have a definitive ending, yet they are left partially open for future content or just the imagination of the viewer.