If you were Akira Toriyama, what would you retcon about DBZ?

[Ralen]

Besides probably scrapping the Android, Cell, and Buu Sagas, I'd toss SSJ2, SSJ3, and make SSJ4 the new "SSJ2" as well as the final transformation.

Your move... Toriyama.

[Ralen]

Veya님이 먼저 게시:

...

Sure. I'll explain SSJ God first. Unlike the other traditional SSJ forms, SSJ God isn't a multiplier. It's a static power level, and Goku, through the course of fighting Beerus, learned and retained most of the power. Thus, there is absolutely no point for Goku to go SSJ God (notice you haven't seen Goku in SSJ God form in any of the trailers or footage from RoF). This also explains how Goku's power level spikes considerably from the end of Buu (barely able to fight Kid Buu as a SSJ3) to the beginning of GT, where Goku is able to fight a fully-trained Uub (Kid Buu) in his base form.

As for Beerus, he is the God of Destruction. He has his own role and obligations and can't mess around with Goku and friends forever. It's very likely after the Frieza threat is over Beerus returns to his frequent slumber and is no longer a major player. As for Frieza's god form, that could be explained in a variety of ways. For one, it wouldn't matter one way or the other if Frieza used the form in GT as Goku is substantially more powerful by this time compared to RoF. Also, it's difficult to know the extent of the form until we actually see the film. Perhaps Frieza is able to retain most of the power of the form like Goku did with SSJ God, or it has limits and restrictions unlike Frieza's final form.

Beerus, SSJ God, and Frieza's god form were relevant for a short few years in between the end of the Buu Saga and before the end of Z. They hardly had "several points of relevance through the series." They are minor story arcs or miniature sagas, if you will, that overall don't have a major impact on the Dragon Ball story. What these new films have done, however, is further explain how Goku became exceptionally stronger between the end of the Buu Saga and the end of Z. It's no wonder Goku barely even has to transform into a SSJ during the early parts of GT because it's not necessary. The new films reinforce and further cement GT, not contradict it.

[Veya]

I am not talking about using them, not having Beerus on Speed Dial, I am talking about of comments, passing mentions, maybe Supreme Kai going for a moment "If Baby didn't have control of everyone, perhaps we could use Super Saiyan God against him...", I just ask for that, but no mention of past events in any shape or forms just doesn't ring it right.

[Erebus]

Didn't Toriyama say that he accepts GT as an alternate universe or something in one of his interviews? I might be wrong, cus I didn't look into it that much.

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

I'd nerf the Saiyans, good Buu and all villains after Frieza (Beerus and Whis can stay where they are, but they're classical antiheros more than villains anyway), so that the non-saiyan heros can still be meaningful. The biggest complaint I have about the series is how the series has so many characters, yet only a tiny fraction of them are still relevant

Secondly, I would make Chi-Chi relevant again too. She may be a housewife and a stay-at-home mother, but she's still a very skilled martial artist.

And one more thing - I'd vary the fighting styles of the characters a bit more to add variety. Some examples:

• Mr. Satan/Hercule is a professional wrestler. He should be focused more on wrestling, jujitsu, and possibly a few Sumo techniques (primarily knowledge of how an opponent's center of gravity affects their balance - though I could definately see Hercule parodying E. Honda's Thousand Hand Slap from Street Fighter as well).
  
• It's hard to believe that Piccolo would use a varient of Karate, due to him being an alien. Same goes for the rest of the Namekians. I'd spice things up a bit and give the Namekians something a bit more specialized to their physiology.
  
• Tien would use Judo, rather than Karate.
  
• Chi-Chi would use some form of Kung-Fu (likely Mantis style).
  
• Gohan would use a mix of Karate and the Namekian style (adjusted to fit a non-Namekian, of course), since he was trained by Piccolo.
  
• Goten would use a mix of Karate and Kung-Fu, as he was trained by Chi-Chi and then Gohan.
  
• Yamcha would use a mix of Karate and Tai-Kwan-Do.
  
• Post Kai training Goku would have some additional techniques usually only used by the Kais.
  
• Future Trunks would always have his sword, even during the Cell games. Oh, and it would still have a crack in the blade post-Android Saga. Kid Trunks would be given a sword early on, but would be hesitant to use it in serious combat as he wouldn't know how to use it properly at the time. Oh, and it would be too big for him.

Other than these subtle (well, in some cases not so subtle) changes, I wouldn't really change much. Maybe I would rework a few Deus Ex Machina moments to be less Deus Ex Machina-ish, but that kinda goes hand in hand with the overall nerf. I remember someone mentioning that Akira Toriyama said he doesn't actually have a set canon (makes sense that he would if he did - in his notes in the Shonen Jump manga, he admits that a majority of the series is impromptu and improvised).

[Ralen]

Veya님이 먼저 게시:

I am not talking about using them, not having Beerus on Speed Dial, I am talking about of comments, passing mentions, maybe Supreme Kai going for a moment "If Baby didn't have control of everyone, perhaps we could use Super Saiyan God against him...", I just ask for that, but no mention of past events in any shape or forms just doesn't ring it right.

Again, I already explained why SSJ God is defunct at this point. A lack of mentioning past events hardly suggests a lack of continuity. I never hear Goku banter with Piccolo about their old rivarly pre-DBZ. I think you are just being nitpicky at that point.

Cerulean Embrace님이 먼저 게시:

Didn't Toriyama say that he accepts GT as an alternate universe or something in one of his interviews? I might be wrong, cus I didn't look into it that much.

Nope. Earth is only in Universe 7, thus an alternate universe theory isn't possible. GT is a direct sequel to Z. The only difference is the story wasn't based off a manga written by Toriyama. Funny enough he is credited as the primary author of the GT story.

[Moon Rabbit]

Want to know what Toriyama actually thinks of GT (at least publically), as well as his involvement?
Here:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/

Akira Toriyama translated from the GT DVD box set Dragon Book 2015님이 먼저 게시:

My sincerest gratitude to all those who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD box.

Being a lazy bum by nature, I was absurdly happy when I managed to safely finish up Dragon Ball’s serialization, and finally be released from Deadline Hell. The TV anime people wanted to continue for just a little bit more, but I [just couldn’t do] any more than that… And so, I left the Dragon Ball anime completely up to the anime staff, story and all. That was Dragon Ball GT.

In car lingo, GT means “Gran Turismo”: a fast, high-powered car, in other words. But in this case, I had GT mean “Grand Touring”, a great journey, since the scenario was that they’d be running around the universe.

For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on Dragon Ball for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my drawings in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn’t tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun’s designs was “Super Saiyan 4″, which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well?

Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.

— Akira Toriyama

[Virus_Kid]

Pax Augusta님이 먼저 게시:

Veya님이 먼저 게시:

I am not talking about using them, not having Beerus on Speed Dial, I am talking about of comments, passing mentions, maybe Supreme Kai going for a moment "If Baby didn't have control of everyone, perhaps we could use Super Saiyan God against him...", I just ask for that, but no mention of past events in any shape or forms just doesn't ring it right.

Again, I already explained why SSJ God is defunct at this point. A lack of mentioning past events hardly suggests a lack of continuity. I never hear Goku banter with Piccolo about their old rivarly pre-DBZ. I think you are just being nitpicky at that point.

Cerulean Embrace님이 먼저 게시:

Didn't Toriyama say that he accepts GT as an alternate universe or something in one of his interviews? I might be wrong, cus I didn't look into it that much.

Nope. Earth is only in Universe 7, thus an alternate universe theory isn't possible. GT is a direct sequel to Z. The only difference is the story wasn't based off a manga written by Toriyama. Funny enough he is credited as the primary author of the GT story.

Cerulean might have meant timeline, as we already know DBZ timetravel works on multiverse theory, it could easily be possible that GT is simply in another universe. Another thing: Toriyama has stated that you can consider anything canon if you want. He just likes drawing cool things. So, if you want, GT is canon. Like Broly? His movies are canon. Hated him? Not canon.


So yeah, we should stop with the whole GT argument already.

[robomagon]

Pax Augusta님이 먼저 게시:

Veya님이 먼저 게시:

I am not talking about using them, not having Beerus on Speed Dial, I am talking about of comments, passing mentions, maybe Supreme Kai going for a moment "If Baby didn't have control of everyone, perhaps we could use Super Saiyan God against him...", I just ask for that, but no mention of past events in any shape or forms just doesn't ring it right.

Again, I already explained why SSJ God is defunct at this point. A lack of mentioning past events hardly suggests a lack of continuity. I never hear Goku banter with Piccolo about their old rivarly pre-DBZ. I think you are just being nitpicky at that point.

Cerulean Embrace님이 먼저 게시:

Didn't Toriyama say that he accepts GT as an alternate universe or something in one of his interviews? I might be wrong, cus I didn't look into it that much.

Nope. Earth is only in Universe 7, thus an alternate universe theory isn't possible. GT is a direct sequel to Z. The only difference is the story wasn't based off a manga written by Toriyama. Funny enough he is credited as the primary author of the GT story.

GT is an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe. Which should make it canon enough for people who like it, and non-canon enough for people who don't.

[Kujo Irene]

would remove GT but i don't think you can recton it since Gt wasn't cannon

[Ralen]

No. There is no alternate universe nor is there an alternate timeline. The first is wrong because we know Earth is only in one universe. The second is wrong because such an indication is never given and the events of GT have continuity with the events from the main timeline (DBZ show and Kid Trunks is now an adult). No, fans do not "decide" whether something is canon or not based on how they feel. The reason most of the movies are not canon is purely because they conflict with the Dragon Ball timeline.

Really, lets stop arguing about GT because it won't be retconned and it has always been canon.

[2Dement3D]

I'd make it so you can't wish for people to come back from the dead, regardless of which planet's dragon balls they are. It'd bring a lot more tension, cos as it stands now, there's almost no consequences for dying. Even DBZ Abridged has made jokes about that.

[Veya]

Pax Augusta님이 먼저 게시:

Really, lets stop arguing about GT because it won't be retconned and it has always been canon.

You made a thread asking what people would change/get rid of, if most people want to get rid of GT, then people will say they want to get rid of GT, it is kind of the point of the thread.

[Ralen]

2Dement3D님이 먼저 게시:

I'd make it so you can't wish for people to come back from the dead, regardless of which planet's dragon balls they are. It'd bring a lot more tension, cos as it stands now, there's almost no consequences for dying. Even DBZ Abridged has made jokes about that.

Yep. One of my biggest issues with DBZ. I think Toriyama handled it better early on all the way to the Frieza Saga. You felt as if there was consequences and people could actually die, and then everybody started being revived, and planets were being revived, and then you realize it doesn't matter if good guys win or lose...

[KiraTsukasa]

Pax Augusta님이 먼저 게시:

No. There is no alternate universe nor is there an alternate timeline. The first is wrong because we know Earth is only in one universe. The second is wrong because such an indication is never given and the events of GT have continuity with the events from the main timeline (DBZ show and Kid Trunks is now an adult). No, fans do not "decide" whether something is canon or not based on how they feel. The reason most of the movies are not canon is purely because they conflict with the Dragon Ball timeline.

Really, lets stop arguing about GT because it won't be retconned and it has always been canon.

Future Trunks returns to the future to find that it is still a wasteland despite saving it in the past. That PROVES that the Dragon Ball universe has multiple timelines. Since Toriyama himself states that it is a side story, pretending that GT is a canon occurance of the main timeline is like pretending that all the DBZ fanfiction is canon.

[Ralen]

Veya님이 먼저 게시:

You made a thread asking what people would change/get rid of, if most people want to get rid of GT, then people will say they want to get rid of GT, it is kind of the point of the thread.

No. I made a thead about what people would retcon about "DBZ." Feel free to read the title and the OP. GT is not mentioned anywhere as it always leads to the same nonsense due to lack of knowledge on the subject matter. The only ones who keep bringing it up are GT haters who are actually derailing the thread.