Endgame 10/10

[Omilex]

I'm just curious for anyone that has gotten to the last part of the game have they gotten to 10/10? I gave it a few tries and keep getting Nines and Eights and before I waste my time and become an Ish I want to see if it's actually possible.

[rujuro]

Someone earlier posted that they got the 10/10, and I have seen a number of people with the achievement. It is NOT EASY though, and requires some conditions be met that are not obvious. If you want to know what they are, happy to post a spoiler reply.

[Snicker]

It is indeed possible, as I've gotten the achievement. The obvious goal is to keep your player happy throughout their run through. You also want them to experience everything you've put together. This means that, in every room, you have to find a way to lure the player into each nook and cranny, but NOT with the exact same methods each time (or your player gets bored). Also, the closer the player gets to dying without ACTUALLY dying, the more exciting it is.

I will say that it's not impossible to do without having first completed all the other meta-achievements (collecting all the secrets, as it were), but it gets easier because of the bonus life you're given to work with while editing.

[Omilex]

Originally posted by rujuro:

Someone earlier posted that they got the 10/10, and I have seen a number of people with the achievement. It is NOT EASY though, and requires some conditions be met that are not obvious. If you want to know what they are, happy to post a spoiler reply.

I'm good. I just wanted to make sure it was actually possible. I wouldn't put it passed this game after playing it to make 10/10 impossible and turn the player into a truly new Ish.

[rujuro]

Hah! We may have kicked that idea around at some point, but we just can't be that mean.

[Touch Me I'm Sick]

I wouldn't mind knowing what those criteria are... I fluked a 10/10 on my second go.

First time, Pro doubled back 2 tiles to grab some treasure and a mob in a niche he missed. Is that normal?

[rujuro]

It is not, although depends on how far back he went. We've been trying to squash really bad doubling back, but an active combat threat will take precedence, and he can sometimes go back to get things he missed if they are within a certain distance. If it seemed way too far, let us know and maybe we can look at your layout file to find the issue. Will add the criteria to this post shortly.

[Touch Me I'm Sick]

No, it didn't seem too far at all - certainly no further than I would go back (as a % of the game) to explore an obvious fork that I missed in a game.

Stephen Garret... err Russell's performance was particularly funny during the QA of my game.

[rujuro]

awesome!

so, 10/10 criteria. Pro must stay pinned at the far right of the excitement meter for net 70% of playtime or more (being bored subtracts from that value) to make it to 9, he must experience at least 7 of the possible 11 forms of excitement he can encounter for the final point. If you would like to know all the forms of excitement, I can add those as well.

[Touch Me I'm Sick]

Interesting! I think I got my 10 too easily, I had:

- way too much treasure: 4 chests in the final room because I'm a loot ♥♥♥♥♥, but Pro wasn't interested
- too much health, not enough allies: health costs alot of life in the editor, creatures not so much, my health globes were only filling 50% or less
- it occurred to me after Pro gave me the 10 that I could make it more exciting by having less health, and more allies joining him along the way to make bigger battles! If I hadn't got a 10 this is what I would have tried next... Allies hidden in the blocked paths, and more enemies to go with them. RPG tradition would see a companion joining you in the first 2 tiles I guess? I didn't see any Pro feedback from a friendly creature throwing a shield on him though... I'm assuming this isn't currently a factor?

Anywho - I really enjoyed this end to the experience, flipping the keyboard and criticising the player. I wish you'd taken the gloves off though, I was waiting for the gaming public to shred me to pieces for every decision I'd made, but it never happened :(

We deserve it, we're horrible people. Even when you invite us to make our own game within your game so you can criticise it, we're still criticising the way you criticise us.

[rujuro]

ha, no wouldn't be fair to rip you to shreds when the tools we give you are so limited. Allthough if you don't put anything interesting for pro, then he can be pretty rough.

[APeacefulWarrior]

See, personally, I'm not sure that constant 70%+ excitement is necessarily the best game design. I was actually darned proud of a moment I set up early in my first level where literally one second after Pro and\or Coda started complaining about being bored, the Epic Music popped on and a monster attacked them from behind. It interrupted them both mid-complaint.

BOOM. Jumpscare. And a repeatable one too! ;-)

If you ever revise the way the scoring works, I'd suggest trying to make a rapid boredom reversal mirror the reward given for well-placed potions when health is low. Occasionally lulling a player into complacency just to set 'em up for a surprise usually means they'll be more on-edge for the rest of the level.

Maybe it distinguishes this by requiring the tester to have several boredom-killing moments within a very short succession, like 3-4 nearly at once? Music+Action+Unique Monster or something like that would "undo" a boredom penalty by justifying it as Great Pacing. Make it hard to achieve, since it is. (Plus, it would give designers an alternative to spamming chests/signs to keep interest up when they don't want to add difficulty.)

Or not. :-)

[rujuro]

It's certainly an interesting idea, and you are right, there can be some truth in that kind of excitement. But to a certain extent we wanted fairly clear judgement criteria that mostly felt honest it it's appraisal (but of course it is only Pro's opinion, playing the role of an easily bored player).

Additionally, the conditions to make that kind of appraisal work are very tricky. It seems it would need to be combat right after you are bored, but presumably you can't have seen the combat coming for it to be a surprise, which gets into some very dicey logic.

We have some future plans for the mode that depend on our ability to afford to do it that would make pro's opinion not the only one that matters :)

[Omilex]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Pro. He might as well be a reptile who falls asleep without constantly having something to kill. :P

[rujuro]

Originally posted by Pirate Jaques the Dagger:

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Pro. He might as well be a reptile who falls asleep without constantly having something to kill. :P

:)

[APeacefulWarrior]

Oh, I set up the jump by putting the monster at the bottom of a stairwell, beneath the bend, so it would start moving to attack before the tester was fully down the stairs, but the tester couldn't see it yet. Then I put the epic music trigger directly at the base of the stairs, hoping that X and Y would converge at Z at roughly the same time. And they did!

(I've made modded levels in the past, so I was actually asking questions like 'What is the player looking at right now?' when dropping monsters in. Which probably just means I was over-thinking things, haha.)