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Children mine can be ignored alltogether, to the point you don't need to discover them at all.
Focus on coal production (adv mine, -66% consumption), have everything heated to the max so few sickness enough to manage with 1 infirmary on overcrowded, this lets you have 4 workshops on research and get every relevant tech early.
The only struggle is early food, don't get more people until hot springs, try to get sawdust, prioritize safe route with hot springs, after that you've basically won.
This allows you to significantly cut down on your sick as sawdust makes 6.5 percent of pop on survivor sick dailly you have 85 people so 5.5 people dailly extra sick that’s an entire med bay as no overcrowding costing you 5 eng perm till hotspring. If juggling and you should be more. The value of not having that amount of sick out weights the value of the food as the food is not limiting enough as people have found how to optimize their laws get to the hotsprings as fast as possible and learn just how much extra steel and cores you have. Sure sawdust is better in the long run for getting food rations to send but it makes the early game hard and like most maps the early game is what matters. The discontent from soup is a non factor to the point you don’t even need to use 24 hour shifts on the warehouse pre hotspring and don’t in order to get them loyal. Yes you do if you want to upgrade them but it’s meaningless to upgrade them really.
Sawdust makes deathless or even a single death quite hard and annoying amounts of micro vs soup that it’s rather easy with just due to the main issue sick being easier. Food has been found to not be the main issue as they give you enough assuming rushing hotspring plus not taking survivors.
Even if you don’t care about a death or two soup is better as than food is less of a issue from deaths but will have a significantly easier time with the less sick.
As for the ops tips this is obv with survivor in mind
child labor just no. Requesting it takes a request slot. That spot can be used for more coal to deal with sick or more wood to get ahead. Having child labor to save the one worker in the cookhouse is not worth and you shouldent be requesting it in your first two really 4 request so that means by the time you get piles are gone or close to it. It’s just not worth it don’t pass and get shelters later for a tech boost it’s not needed also but better than child labor:
As for saying not to ever request coal that’s just wrong. You most def should request coal esp from new London in the early game. Requesting coal allows you to delay coal mine this makes tech not a issue to delay and freeing up eng as don’t need to rush tech so hard to deal with the mass sick. This is esp important for survivor.
For tech you want braziers first there is no reason to get sawmills early really get heaters before it even. Sawmills are there for once the piles are more or less cleared up. You don’t got labor to go around and limited trees no need to rush getting them down but getting med taken care of is important.
Don’t get extended braiser range. You can fit 9 homes in a basic braiser enough for starting pop plus the kids that come to a single one two braiser a fit your entire pop without extending. Extending is less coal effective as you have only slightly more edge space but not enough to get another building in there. As such you get more buildings covered per coal used with basic as such it’s better to just build another basic braiser than upgrade when needed.
Don’t get faster gathering it’s not worth. You won’t be using thumpers and it only works on piles. By the time you should have free tech time to get it the piles should be cleared.
Don’t use thunpers use mines. You have unlimited cores and limited labor no reason what so ever to be using the less labor effective option.
Much better tips here to be honest. If you 'finally cracked hard mode' it indicates you had some difficulty with it so are not playing optimally, alot of us did hard mode then extreme mode first try since the DLC is so easy to beat.
Important points here that you shouldnt do. Brazier range tech, dont bother, two braziers give more heat per tile than double range ones.
Heaters before sawmill, again good advice, early sick is more of a risk than low wood.
Asking London for child labour or discontent laws. Do not do this, the unlock to control your laws is super quick and you have way more time than needed to do it yourself. You should get the extended shift stuff by delaying shipments and a food law (I agree that Soup is fine on extreme). Then milk them for resources, otherwise you waste favour on laws.
I also think its worth scouting childs mine. Your scout will be in the frostland regardless gathering resources and will head over there, its no hassle to start trading with them and just only ask them for steel which gives you more options.
Coal thumper is great if you ended up with child labour as they can safely gather, if you have shelters coal mine is the obvious way to go.
Ill add to this. Its really not great even with child labor. coal thumper is 560 coal per day steam coal mine is 600 per day.
Child labor gives extra people.
As such to get the same effect coal mines needs +1 extra tech and +2 steam cores the steam cores are vary low cost in the map and tech is not a real issue once hot spring is found you can get away till hotsping never needing either via requests. Coal thumpers need 5 more people thou (10 would be staffed in coal mine anyways 15 from child labor so an additional 5 to get the 30). So coal thumpers are in effect 5 people worse labor wise so 2 steam cores save you 5 labor in this build. BUT you give up tech speed later game which honestly is better than coal production as that tech speed will get you more than 1 additional tech over the game.
Coal mines will cause less discontent constantly working on extended shifts. Minor but still important as you likely will have gone for the no death emg shift via accepting the one death unless going full deathless. As such this less discontent wasted on coal allows for more 24 hour shifts on mines and tech this is a rather large boon that will within a single extra 24 hour shift result in a extra tech alone not including the value on the warhouse. The amount of discontent from 2 extended shifts will get you a 24 hour shift every few days this is massive if those 24 hour shifts are being used and should be. Now you could just not use them on extended shifts but than the already lesser coal from coal mines (560 vs 600) is made worse by doing this.
Coal mines allow you to place it + 2 workshops + cookhouse within its braiser vs thumpers requiring a braiser to themselves this further increases coal use by 1 braiser and that is significant when you only need 2 for houses + 1 for workplaces in a optimized setup as you are in effect increasing coal use by 17%. (a workplace braiser is worth about half a 24 hour one on extended shift. As such 2 24 hour =4 one workplace = 1 so 4+1 = 5 in the optimized build 6 if adding for thumpers.) So now you not only have less production of coal by a bit, more labor being used to get that but using significantly more coal. (the calc is the same if using heaters vs braisers, in fact it favors coal mines slightly more as higher base insulation.)
The price of 2 steam cores and 1 tech in order to have to have +5 workers house and feed them vs sending all your extra people of and only maintaining what you need is hardly worth it. (you can make your pop exactly as large as you need quite easy)
So thou coal thumper is viable it is quite a bit worse than coal mines when optimizing. I would say EVEN when getting child labor the better more is to pick up all jobs and staff them in the coal mine. Yes you will have an odd death but over the game at most you would lose 5 so those 15 would staff the coal mine making child labor resulting in no labor coal gathering at the cost of a tech boost.
On my extreme run I went coal mines, cause I knew what to do and that its the better option. But on my very first playthrough, which was on hard, I went thumpers and accidentally had over the 3000 coal I needed to send to New London without even trying to stockpile a bunch. So its not the very best, but thumpers are still great.
I agree with you on the thumpers I always use them this is the only case I have ever said to go with mines over them just shows how much this one favours them.
As for medical it’s not worth. Once at hotspring you are able to freely tech this makes medical a none issue vary quickly as even on extreme you will easy get t2 braiser and bunkhouses early (within a few day of hotspring) than have no medical issues for the rest of the game. Infirmary you’re will have for the one or two grav I’ll you might get once minus 60 starts to happen but that’s a long way off and easy to get. The tech option is just better for that reason. If the pop was larger medical would be good but it’s not making even a single infirmary plus overcrowding able to handle your entire pop. The value of medical shelters is only there if you stack medical eff bonus over 160-180 percent as per that you just make people come earlyer but still within the evenings free time after they got sick. So your not really gaining anything from the medical boost production wise and you don’t need to feee beds with overcrowding already giving all the beds you need. The tech boost thou gives clear benaifts in all areas once gotten. While yes tech is not that big of deal in this map some clear boosts is better than not really gaining any value.
If sawdust thou I would consider shutting of sawdust for normal meals once hotsprings safe route is up as than there loyal as don’t need to stockpile and should be easy to maintain food for your city so the 6.5 percent assuming extreme loss to production mainly in the army warehouse is not worth it.
I wouldent call them great. They are viable yes but there a decent way of being a great choice. At best I would call them a good choice if you have child labor with great choice being mines with child labor all jobs the best choice being not asking for child labor and getting mines plus shelters. I also used thunpers in my first hard as favour them in basic all cases, but looking at this map they are quite a bit worse than mines even if child labor is taken.
That freed up tech is really not even in the early game as steam mines are not needed till later when you want t2 braiser. By than you have the options of not even going to steam and sending resources to the kids but honestly that’s a bad idea also but at that point that one tech is a non factor really as you have all the stuff you really need by that point even in extreme.
For this scenario it doesn't matter much anyway. Usually child labor is the clearly superior option, but in this scenario there's not much use for it. You don't really have enough kids to go the thumper route and since you don't have hot houses or house of healing you can't put them on food or medical duty either so you might as well go the shelter route and get at least some benefit from them. In most scenarios where you do go with shelters, the permanent hope bonus is the main benefit.
When I do go with shelters I usually pick medical because while the small research boost you can get is useful in the mid game, most scenarios you're going to run out of things to research anyway before the end, at which point the research bonus is worthless.
With the medical bonus you need less engineers on medical duty so you can use those extra engineers for an indirect research boost by putting them in workshops or you can use the extra labor for resource gathering by putting them in a sawmill, coal mine, whatever. And unlike the research boost, the medical boost is useful for the entire game, especially for situations where you get a surge in sick people from an event or a group of refugees or something. Either way I don't think we really disagree on much here.
If you get to hotspring you win so by the time the pick of medical or eng comes into play it’s already a moot thing.
That being said, getting to a point where your out of tech to upgrade is not a bad thing. And While yes even in extreme on this map you can hit that point (least no more you want). That dosent make eng apprentice any worse furthermore worthless, it does make medical nicer at that point but you should of made the call between them long before that point.
While yes med app allows you to put a small bit more eng into tech the boost to tech is lesser by a significant margin. Thou the best way to boost tech while maintaining enough med is eng juggling. Which when you take that into account as med apprentice is a fixed +20% boost regardless of eng staff level it dose pair well with juggling so assuming you are apprentices value dose raise a lot. Can see it being comparable in that regard.
The value of having the tech early means less sick earlyer from better tech and more effective workplaces early due to again tech. As the limited in this map is not keeping your people alive in the mid game but the amount of resources you produce to send in order to upgrade the settlements stuff that increase production will be the winner in value. While it’s not hard to get loyal with all even in extreme it is a challenge to upgrade all 3 to max ( it is possible even in extreme). As such eng apprentice that boosts the total steel and resource amounts you have over the game is significant. Freeing up labor cant really do that as most locations in this map are limited staff wise and should be constantly maxed on labor so tech is the way to boost them eg the warehouse.
But as you said it’s minor as at that point you won already this is talking about win mores at this point. As such what you pick really doesn't matter much. But if aiming for a “perfect” win eg extreme all settlements maxed deathless (something I’m sure is impossible at this time thou it’s possible with one death) having as many advantages as possible is important so the discussion still has a point.
You see its still not as simple as that as thumpers make way more coal than a T1 mine, this means you can last much longer with a thumper so that delay lasts longer and in the meantime you are stockpiling more coal. The knock on effects would need to actually be looked into more before figuring out exactly how good one is to another. The comparison at face value only works if a T1 thumper made the same coal as a T1 coal mine.
Anyway, if you choose coal thumper you'll easily make enough coal to cover your city and to fufil requests etc as this scenario is so easy which makes it more than viable, ergo with kids it is a great choice as it uses their free labour. Its not just ok, you'll breeze through with it.
I mentioned the factors beyond just thumpers make more coal in fact that was only a vary small part of my assessment, that was posted here for you to read above.
But to further it with even more points:
Not only dose a thumper produce less coal than steam mines thou yes it dose produce more than coal mines the 2nd tech for steam coal mines are not needed for a long time while coal thumpers require a 2nd tech to get gathering posts to the same insulation level as coal mines and every other building the has t2 base (other than warehouse) in the setup that uses coal mines making the total tech the same unless you are wanting to spend significantly more coal via heaters or have more sick that further makes the production of thumpers worse than they already are. Thumpers are 560 coal vs steam coal mines at 600. You should have the insulation at the same time as steam mines while by the time you are there there is no other pressing tech as have already reached hotspring while there is no tech that is really pressing save for the warehouse upgrades and tech to reduce sick as such after the warehouse upgrades with instulation for gathering posts or steam mines should be on your prio list and gotten well before there needed. Stockpiling coal is eaiser done with steam coal mines also due to there higher production. Not that you would need to stockpile it as once you got steam coal mines you never need more coal its enough to cover the entire base and getting all 3 to loyal even on extreme is easy making you never need a coal stockpile larger than basic size.
While thumpers will require you to invest 5 additional workers to get that level of coal than mines as well as the kids a total of 20 more this is vary significant in the time your talking about where you have not yet have time to get the 2nd tech so pre hotspring. As such there is still piles so if using child labor those kids are usable elsewhere. As such using the mines you are not only getting enough coal income (and more coal per worker when labor matters the most early game pre hotspring) you have those extra hands to gather piles. Later going into all jobs on mines. As once you open hotspring can go all jobs and piles in any diff that matters (extreme) wont be cleared pre hotsping (it took me to a day after hotstping to clear the final coal pile using requests effectively and not wasting coal. This means using the kids on those loations and more people on sawmills would be a better use) while if talking non extreme tech is so fast the time to get that extra tech becomes moot. With gathering from all sources turned up enough to make even basic mines last for most of the game due to the faster tech making the braiser eff upgrades come faster.
As mentioned on top of that 2 cores vs 5 extra labor 2 cores is a cheaper cost. 5 extra labor not only requires you to feed and house them you need to tend to them as they get sick. While the cores you have to collect anyways. As when sending the final shipment of 250 steam and 5 cores you take the mine apart right before you send it for 2 cores. So the core collection and cost is almost non existent other than collecting them early that dose not stop you from getting anything you need.
thumpers needing significantly more coal to heat, as well as other factors.
Honestly if your not going to read the breakdown on why thumpers are just worse and by a significant level than claim it was spoke about as being as simple as thumpers produce more than t1 mines shouldn't try to claim something as better than they are. Esp when not all the points where mentioned as said but the ones not mentioned only favor mines even more. There is nothing you have said so far that puts thumpers as the better option or anything better than just viable and not great.
Yes thumpers are viable but they are not great nor the best. They are at best good. A great choice would of been to just use those kids in the mines via all jobs. This is how you use there free labor. Not taking a inferior tech that is still inferior when using there free labor. As even with the few deaths they would staff the mines completely and still be a better result than using the thumper. As such even when talking about if you got child labor assigned mines are just better. Leaving it a nothing more than a viable but inferior option. I would never call the option that not only is not the best in any case but not the best in your given case as well as not even one of the better two options overall out of only 5 options as great. Its at best a good option that is at least not as bad as burning a limited resource (kilns) or having to make a safe route and spending way more time and resources than its worth to setup.