Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
Just like dueling law in the basic tree it was never good and still is not good to this day.
Extended shifts is good in the base game and no reason for it to be different in last autumn that is just confusing. Two shifts is better and should be better as it is longer hours just like it would be in real life. In a game like this realism is just as important as balance.
Also two shifts has its own version of the long hours of toil event from using it on to many places.
If anything the only thing that needs a change here is shift work coordination as by realism there is no reason two shifts would take less workers than normal to get the same eff. While for balance there is no reason for it. Even without shift work coordination two shift remains the better option so replacing it with a different law is what makes sense. If its jsut removed the same needs to be done for extended 2nd law also thou. As such replacement makes the most sense. Such as a law that req more food given to them to reduce discontent to keep constant with extended. Otherwise getting max value with one law only alone has its advantages.
There is no reason what so ever to change extended shifts it should remain constant to the base game.
Beyond changing shift work there is no issue what so ever with two shift being more powerful as it should be. A larger labor force working in two shifts will be better than one working just longer hours. People are not machines they should not be able to do 14 hour days back to back while maintaining the same eff as people working shorter shifts and as such better rested. This would be more constant thou as two shift would only be a 20% buff per work vs extended 40% but cause less discontent than extended (as its based on workplace not people how much discontent is caused and each law causes the same out of the box). While two shift would be much much stronger on workplaces you are limited by eg workshops and steam core buildings and gen work. While extended would stronger on buildings you can place how many you want kilns and sawmills only basically. This inherent flaw will make extended never really worth as last auten is vary heavily based around not being able to make as many workplaces as you want and as such needing to maximize the workplaces you already have.
two shift dose increase discontent. By exactly the same as extended per workplace baseline. But as twice as many workers needed it nets to half the total discontent so yes in the end you are right it is less discontent but not your first claim of "it is still 12 hour workday for normal amount of people (+2 hours) without any discontent increase".
On top if you use the 2nd law of two shift in your comp you must also use the 2nd law of extended to be a fair comp this cuts extended discontent in half making your point of less discontent false but reqs more food rations as a trade of. Well even the food use is not correct. As two shift reqs you to have 50% more people per workplace so the food use in fact is the same as exteneded shifts in this case. As such the end result iis extended causing half as much discontent and same food use per workplace with two shift needing 50 percent more workers. As such you would still have a 2nd workplace open with extended netting the same total discontent but extended needing the larger workforce to fully staff both and food use in the end.
It dose not help a thread to spread missinfo. When the correct facts alone stand for themselves.
Well, I admit, I didn't measure the exact discontent values, but the numbers you present seem very off to me. Extended shifts without extra rations cap the discontent extremely fast, on the other hand I had the whole camp running on work coordinated double shifts with only minor discontent issues, so I am not sure that your discontent calculation is correct. Especially since extended shift compensation forses you to have extra rations by the end of workday. But that was not the point anyway.
Two shift still give you a better net on buildings that you cannot just build more of, and those are the ones that matter the most, without even mentioning that any additional building constructed is additional resources spent, not even talking about steam cores.
As your argument with dueling law, that is not applicable here, as that is an optional law you can add on top of anything. That's why noone compares short shifts with two shifts, they are mutually available, not exclusive. So exclusive laws should give similarly weighting benefits, or have more benefits with greater drawbacks. As it is now, two shifts is better in any scenario, except for maybe one, where you only have 10 workers left and you need to squeeze as much as possible from then, but that is too specific. I doubt you would argue with that, even if my math was description of it was somewhat off.
For the discontent comp I know my numbers are correct via comp the two directly via saving before taking the law and looking at exactly how much the discontent bar goes up with each on a per workplace level. Yes extended will cause more discontent if you mindlessly use everywhere and only use two shift on one building that is not a fair comp. your agruement would have some merit if you did a real test not a vary bias feels case. As said with a real test saving before taking the law and looking at exactly how much the bar moves per workplace shows they are exactly equal baseline pre 2nd law per workplace. Same with if waiting 24 hours after doing nothing else other than watching will result in a gain the exact same amount of discontent with only the first law.
As such as mentioned since it’s the same per workplace and extended you run twice as many due to two shift using twice as much labor you end with extended being Exactly double assuming same labor amount using both laws.
Even if your above was true it would still make my org comment true your statment of two shift having no discontent cost for 2 extra hours work is false.
Being exclusive or not dosent matter when talking about if it should be viable or not. Either all laws should be viable or it dosent matter. As for dueling being optional the exact same case can be said for extended its optional to take it over two shift. It’s worse than taking the other option sure but that’s fine just like taking dueling law is worse than not taking it.
Even if you want to compaire to another exclusive case there is examples of that two snow pit vs cemetery with 2nd laws is not even in the same league. cemetery in deathless dose nothing while snow pit still gives clear and large boosts. While when not in deathless cemetery costs you labor when people are dieing as such the time you most need people working (when people are dying) you have labor lost vs snow pit that cost you nothing still gives you the large 20 percent boost to healthcare while in times of death also gives you free prosthetics to help get out of the death spiral by getting any amps you have back to work. The hope lost reduce from cemetery is hardly even noticeable compaired to the boosts of snow pit. Yet people use cemetery as it’s kinder. As said laws don’t have to be equal as there not required to take the lesser option you are able to take the better one as much as you want if you want it harder.
As said it would not be realistic for extended shifts to be better or close to two shifts via work done. As working round the clock with new people swaping in is more effective than trying to force the same people to work longer hours people are not machines they have clear limits. As said realism is a vary large factor in these kinds of games just as much as balance. Extended shifts and two shifts are fine as said the problem lies with shift work cordination that cuts labor force yet keeps productively the same that makes no sense realism and balance wise. Just replacing that with something more on par with extended less discontent for more food makes far more sense than a nerf to two shift or a buff to extended. While extended most def should not be touched there is no reason for the law to work diff between the base game and last autumn that’s adding confusion for no reason.
In short both two shift and extended is fine the only issue is shift work coordination. As shift work is giving you labor for free with no real life explaintion on why that makes sense when two shift already is good enough it’s to strong of a boost on top. That is the problem law not extended nor two shift.
I’ll preface this with I’m fine with your reasoning and fine with it being left as is. I’m sure even the devs are fine with it as is given there is no way they dint know how strong it was. It’s not like the math is hard so sure there fine with it not being compairable just like snowpit and cemetery. That being said to counter it if they want to nerf.
For that to be the case either it is you the leader doing the cordination in which case it only makes sense that in the first place you would of done it as that is your job. As such the 2nd law once again makes no sense as you the leader would of already done it in the first place if your doing the coordination.
As such for it to happen after the fact means someone else doing so for you in which case for it to match real life would need some management staff to cordinate it. As such should req a building staffed that when present workplaces within its spear have there workforce reduced. Not only dose that nerf it makes it more in life with real life of having office tool telling you what to do. Make it req eng to boot. So 5 eng letting you fit 4 or 5 buildings in its range to save 20-25 workers more of places near the gen. Much more in line with reality and better balance as not as much of a boost to production as need more labor by a bit while req eng that cost more lp to boot.
Alt make it so standing one eng as the project manager is required to get that cut to workplace labor. This means for eg sawmill to get that 5 worker cut you need to staff a eng worth two workers lp wise. A total of 17 workers by equivalencies. A nerf that matches realism while making it harder to spam two shifts everywhere.
I thought Two shifts people don't get extra rations like Extended shift compensation. So Two shifts does not consume additional food.
If there is no Two shifts people would still eat.
Yes they dont get extra rations for two shift they do for extended which is exactly what i said.
having 50% larger workforce is 50% more food than base for that workplace. due to 50% more people eating base ration amount.
Exteneded shift 2nd law gives 50% bonus food for that workplace to be on exteneded but cuts the discontent by half so 50% more food vs base also 50% more food for that workplace.
As such same food when comp for the same workplace.
Hense the quote "As two shift reqs you to have 50% more people per workplace so the food use in fact is the same as exteneded shifts in this case."
Yes people still eat without two shift but those 50% extra people you have would NOT be in that workplace. As this is a per workplace comp people that are not in that workplace dose not matter. You do not order extra people to feed you don't have a job for so people sitting around not working is not relevant. Nor is people not working in that workplace relevant as regardless of two shift or extended those NOT in that workplace have no bearing on the comparison. If there is no two shift no they would not eat as I would not of ordered them if there was no job for them. I would of ordered more steam cores instead as without two shift there is a larger labor gain per LP getting cores than workers.
I mean if you are not going to order more people and allocate people from other workplace instead of ordering more people.
Like if there is 200 people total for both extended shift and two shifts, Extended shift still consume more food and have less workhour per people.
Yes but that is not a per workplace comp so quoting my post and disagreeing with it is inaccurate if you are not talking about the same type of comp. While adding so many unknowns. We don’t know if you got all 200 on extended we don’t no if everywhere is fully staffed. Nor quite importantly how your lp was spent as two shift and extended should not have the same pop of playing both optimally.
In your example yes extended will use more food if using a fixed pop of 200. But it will also cause a lesser amount of discontent. As with a fixed pop you will not have twice as many workplaces with extended vs two shift. You will have 33 percent more. As such as a trade of to the increased food it’s lower discontent.
Thing is this example is rather pointless as you order your lp supplies based on the law you pick. So a per workplace comp makes more sense. As when at 160 pop for example ordering 40 more when you don’t got jobs for them as using extended so need more cores to use the same workforce wouldent make sense. Same with your pop level to be a accurate compliment would require 100 percent to be working in extended or two shift this is not a good idea in many cases you don’t need everything working extended or two shift at all times.
Two shift allows and favors a larger workforce getting more value from each core vs extended so you will not have as large of population as you will order more cores to make up for the lower production in reloaders.
This is why a workplace specific comp is the only comp that makes sense. As now your are making it seam like extended is using more food when in fact it is not per workplace. As it’s quite irrelevant how large your pop is as we don’t know how the labor is being broken down now. You have now introduced a ton of unknowns vs a accurate comp by keeping it workplace specific. Most importantly why your pop is the same as almost never should be in any real case. Even number of eng you want changes quite a bit between the two further tossing lp costs out of sync and furthering never having the same pop.
As said extended vs two shift after 2nd law is the same food and discontent per workplace with two shift needing more labor to fully staff and getting more production per worker.
Still the comparison with same population in same workplace make still make extended shift with comp have more food consumption with less workhour.
Like 10 people on Fishing Dock on extended shift with comp will have x1.4 more workhour per person and let's say they have x1.5 food consumption. + half discontent
Then 10 people on Fishing Dock on Two shifts will have 1.6x more workhour per person and they still have x1.0 food consumption + more discontent.
Extended shift will work faster but then it cannot compensate another 10 hours that two shift works with same amount of people.
I've managed to finish generator with extended shift before the cold but not all the upgrades.
But with Two shifts I finished perfect generator before the ice both with worker and engineers.
First would be no reason to run the workplace not fully staffed so not a fair comp food and discontent wise as the discontent is based on workplace not people in there so there is no reason to not fully staff it as no negative to it. There is no discontent reduction for leaving it half staffed. While you do have the labor as it’s more effective to alternate two workplaces one working one day other working the other day than staffing both with only 10 and two shift on so you would never have a case of it not being fully staffed. Unrealistic examples don’t really have much value. While as said your lp spending is based on your law so you will get enough workers to staff correctly.
Yes two shift is more production than extended no one has said otherwise as said before this is not a issue in the least. Two shift and extended are close to each other in power without there 2nd laws.
Only shift work coordination makes two shift stand out. As such back to the org topic it makes no sense what so ever to buff extended adding confusion by making it different than the base game. Just like it makes no sense to nerf two shift that should be better by realism and is not significantly better 20 percent boost per work vs 40 percent per worker of extended but allowing you to get better use per steam core. Making two shift better even with this lower production.
Only shift work coordination is out of line. Even that it’s fine as we know the devs knew this level of power was present it’s not hard math. Just like snowpit vs cemetery snow pit is way ahead of the other option.
There is nothing wrong with one option being clearly better. People choose worse options all the time for flavour and challenge having worse options for that reason is completely fine.
Just like dueling law is a crap law but people take it for the flavour at times. Just like eating humans is obv not a great idea but it is a law non the less.
Two shift is the easier way to play with extended being middle ground and no law being harder and even having a achievement for it names vary clearly showing the devs thoughts on these laws as a crutch.