Is The Bath in TLA useless?

[Artek [General]]

Was one of the first laws i passed. Built the thing. Turned it on like twice for half-a-day and never again. Coal consumption is just too high or at least inconvinient to justify it.

Worse yet, the only positive gain of people not getting sick didn't seem to be much of a problem with 2 medical posts and at least "unheatlthy" workplaces. Maybe if the thing also provided motivation, but as it stands i couldn't find much use for it.

[amordron]

Higher diffs keeping saftey high becomes harder and harder as bass safe levels goes down by 1 per diff.

As such med care gets harder and harder.

The coal of a bathhouse is not bad at all at only 3 per hour vs 25 of a vent.

Coal when done right is really not a issue even with two bathhouses and 3 vents. Once you got a upgraded dock with two steam reloaders on two shift you have so much wood dropping a kiln on two shift will make as much coal as you need with ease.

Do I feel it’s needed not at all is it usefull it can be.
It’s worth having thou as needed for comfortable housing and that is worth so if you got the law anyways might as well use it.

[erneiz]

Originally posted by amordron:

Higher diffs keeping saftey high becomes harder and harder as bass safe levels goes down by 1 per diff.

Really? I do know every subsequent part gets harder in safety levels, but I didn't notice it differ by difficulty. iirc in both in Normal and Survivor the first part needs both Safety Procedures and Short Shifts with Safety Scaffoldings and Vents active while Toxic levels are at 1 to be able to pass the first accident event safely.

[amordron]

Originally posted by erneiz:

Originally posted by amordron:

Higher diffs keeping saftey high becomes harder and harder as bass safe levels goes down by 1 per diff.

Really? I do know every subsequent part gets harder in safety levels, but I didn't notice it differ by difficulty. iirc in both in Normal and Survivor the first part needs both Safety Procedures and Short Shifts with Safety Scaffoldings and Vents active while Toxic levels are at 1 to be able to pass the first accident event safely.

Seen it on the loadscreens at one point, that being said it also reads that docks not only make more piles but fill them faster on the load screens which is not true they only increase amount of piles.

I haven't directly compared what you need as only did normal once and easy for achivs only been playing extreme since.

[Everisto]

Originally posted by erneiz:

Originally posted by amordron:

Higher diffs keeping saftey high becomes harder and harder as bass safe levels goes down by 1 per diff.

Really? I do know every subsequent part gets harder in safety levels, but I didn't notice it differ by difficulty. iirc in both in Normal and Survivor the first part needs both Safety Procedures and Short Shifts with Safety Scaffoldings and Vents active while Toxic levels are at 1 to be able to pass the first accident event safely.

I also have only really played on Survivor, so I might be making a fool of myself here, but I also don't believe this is true.

Insofar as the bath house, I think it's fairly useless . . . not so much because of the coal consumption, although I do think it's a waste of coal, but because it is huge and has a short radius of effect compared to something like the chapel. I'll pass the law, build the bath house for the motivation boost, and then just deconstruct it; I just find it's not worth bothering with.

This is exacerbated by the fact that, if you care about the health of your population, infirmaries are probably one of the more desirable techs on the tech tree, especially when compared with such absurdities as two extra teams of scouts (yeah, because I have 45 workers to waste rooting around in the wilderness and accomplishing nothing when they could be doing something useful back at base). An infirmary is nice and efficient and well worth the investment of a core, as opposed to building three bath houses to try and cover your tent city and hoping that they are actually doing something to justify the coal you're sending up in smoke.

That's just my two cents; it seems like amordron has actually gotten some use out of them, so maybe there's something I'm missing here.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Everisto:

Originally posted by erneiz:

Really? I do know every subsequent part gets harder in safety levels, but I didn't notice it differ by difficulty. iirc in both in Normal and Survivor the first part needs both Safety Procedures and Short Shifts with Safety Scaffoldings and Vents active while Toxic levels are at 1 to be able to pass the first accident event safely.

I also have only really played on Survivor, so I might be making a fool of myself here, but I also don't believe this is true.

Insofar as the bath house, I think it's fairly useless . . . not so much because of the coal consumption, although I do think it's a waste of coal, but because it is huge and has a short radius of effect compared to something like the chapel. I'll pass the law, build the bath house for the motivation boost, and then just deconstruct it; I just find it's not worth bothering with.

This is exacerbated by the fact that, if you care about the health of your population, infirmaries are probably one of the more desirable techs on the tech tree, especially when compared with such absurdities as two extra teams of scouts (yeah, because I have 45 workers to waste rooting around in the wilderness and accomplishing nothing when they could be doing something useful back at base). An infirmary is nice and efficient and well worth the investment of a core, as opposed to building three bath houses to try and cover your tent city and hoping that they are actually doing something to justify the coal you're sending up in smoke.

That's just my two cents; it seems like amordron has actually gotten some use out of them, so maybe there's something I'm missing here.

The thing about safety as mentioned seen it on a load screen but the load screens I have seen to have bad info like my docks example above so vary well possible its wrong. May of been since balancing was done after the tips dunno. Even if it is we know higher diffs healthcare gets harder but the shear factor that there is a higher % chance to get sick at each safety level (like in the base game there is a higher chance to get sick at each cold level). This info you can find on the sliders at the start of the game. So either way the main point remains true of higher diffs sick gets harder to handle.


As mentioned its mainly a factor that comfy beds require you to get it to its small value for placing it is worth it as you already have it unlocked. Comfy beds is quite useful as its a good motivation boost for a small price. The bathhouse is a small boost for really no cost so ya they have some use just not a noticeable amount. The coal to run it is 72 per day. A kiln on two shift after upgrades I norm get anyways produces 880 coal a day. So the 72 coal is really nothing thou norm need two to cover the base well enough. So 144 coal a day. So 16% of my coal income so not bad when you consider that vents use 175 coal per 10 hour shift (less if short shift per). So 525 if 3 for 10 hours. This means 3 vents + 2 bathhosues are covered with a single kiln. There is no reason to produce more coal than needed so might as well use bathhouses as the kiln not running on two shift is just not worth so no reason to not have it fully staffed. As need it on two shift or two of them to cover the vents so better better to run on two shift.

So a small benefit that has no cost other than a small bit of steel and wood to place them is better than no benefit. The law cost nothing as spend that either way for comfy as it would be worth it to grab them even without the bathhouse. While the coal would only be stockpiled otherwise that I already an stockpiling as 525+144 is only 639 of the 880 per day from kilns so already stockpiling a ton from a single kiln to last for the cold part + produce parts.

Yes infirmary are better but them come at a cost. Bathhouses you get just via what you would do otherwise. Yes early game pre stage 2 when its easy to keep high safety I find them worthless as don't have the spare coal but once you do there is no reason to not turn them on. The reduce in sick people alone make up the labor being used on them (16% coal income is worth 1 worker) so if its reducing sick even by 1 per day you got value. I have found that the sick reduce having them on or not is around 10% (of the people who would get sick anyways) but that number is only a ball park based on turn on and of between days to many factors to get the real % so dunno how much its helping for sure. I no at least I'm getting enough value to justify its use as even if only 1% of my pop less is sick its worth the 1 worker. I find in stage 3 esp getting 20-30 a day is not uncommon so 10% of that being 2-3 dose help thou small value. If you have to pick a vent is always a much larger increase than 2 bathhouses and cost about the same daily coal. Infirmary yes do handle the sick BUT they still cost you the labor of when that worker is sick vs a bathhouse stops them from getting sick in the first place. This means the worker never loses that day of labor.

That being said once you get convicts there pointless as who cares if a con is sick. So as said above do I feel there needed no. Are they useless no they can be useful. Outside of extreme thou I don't think you really get that many sick to make it worth. As I was hard pressed to find a time that even needed more than a single med post playing easy for example.

[Zephiel]

Originally posted by Everisto:

Insofar as the bath house, I think it's fairly useless . . . not so much because of the coal consumption, although I do think it's a waste of coal, but because it is huge and has a short radius of effect compared to something like the chapel. I'll pass the law, build the bath house for the motivation boost, and then just deconstruct it; I just find it's not worth bothering with.

I generally agree with the idea the bath house is kind of useless. Sickness mostly comes from poor working conditions, and even on survivor difficulty, so long as you're below Dangerous safety levels, you're likely never to have more than 20 or so sick per 100 workers. Nothing an overcroweded infirmary can't handle.

I think the small radius and small, although constant coal usage, would be better served just running another ventilation plant when you need it rather than trying to reduce the amount of incoming sick. At 72 coal per day per bath house, and the idea that you'll probably need several, it's almost certainly going to cost more coal than a plant would anyway.

[Everisto]

Originally posted by amordron:

Originally posted by Everisto:

I also have only really played on Survivor, so I might be making a fool of myself here, but I also don't believe this is true.

Insofar as the bath house, I think it's fairly useless . . . not so much because of the coal consumption, although I do think it's a waste of coal, but because it is huge and has a short radius of effect compared to something like the chapel. I'll pass the law, build the bath house for the motivation boost, and then just deconstruct it; I just find it's not worth bothering with.

This is exacerbated by the fact that, if you care about the health of your population, infirmaries are probably one of the more desirable techs on the tech tree, especially when compared with such absurdities as two extra teams of scouts (yeah, because I have 45 workers to waste rooting around in the wilderness and accomplishing nothing when they could be doing something useful back at base). An infirmary is nice and efficient and well worth the investment of a core, as opposed to building three bath houses to try and cover your tent city and hoping that they are actually doing something to justify the coal you're sending up in smoke.

That's just my two cents; it seems like amordron has actually gotten some use out of them, so maybe there's something I'm missing here.

The thing about safety as mentioned seen it on a load screen but the load screens I have seen to have bad info like my docks example above so vary well possible its wrong. May of been since balancing was done after the tips dunno. Even if it is we know higher diffs healthcare gets harder but the shear factor that there is a higher % chance to get sick at each safety level (like in the base game there is a higher chance to get sick at each cold level). This info you can find on the sliders at the start of the game. So either way the main point remains true of higher diffs sick gets harder to handle.


As mentioned its mainly a factor that comfy beds require you to get it to its small value for placing it is worth it as you already have it unlocked. Comfy beds is quite useful as its a good motivation boost for a small price. The bathhouse is a small boost for really no cost so ya they have some use just not a noticeable amount. The coal to run it is 72 per day. A kiln on two shift after upgrades I norm get anyways produces 880 coal a day. So the 72 coal is really nothing thou norm need two to cover the base well enough. So 144 coal a day. So 16% of my coal income so not bad when you consider that vents use 175 coal per 10 hour shift (less if short shift per). So 525 if 3 for 10 hours. This means 3 vents + 2 bathhosues are covered with a single kiln. There is no reason to produce more coal than needed so might as well use bathhouses as the kiln not running on two shift is just not worth so no reason to not have it fully staffed. As need it on two shift or two of them to cover the vents so better better to run on two shift.

So a small benefit that has no cost other than a small bit of steel and wood to place them is better than no benefit. The law cost nothing as spend that either way for comfy as it would be worth it to grab them even without the bathhouse. While the coal would only be stockpiled otherwise that I already an stockpiling as 525+144 is only 639 of the 880 per day from kilns so already stockpiling a ton from a single kiln to last for the cold part + produce parts.

Yes infirmary are better but them come at a cost. Bathhouses you get just via what you would do otherwise. Yes early game pre stage 2 when its easy to keep high safety I find them worthless as don't have the spare coal but once you do there is no reason to not turn them on. The reduce in sick people alone make up the labor being used on them (16% coal income is worth 1 worker) so if its reducing sick even by 1 per day you got value. I have found that the sick reduce having them on or not is around 10% (of the people who would get sick anyways) but that number is only a ball park based on turn on and of between days to many factors to get the real % so dunno how much its helping for sure. I no at least I'm getting enough value to justify its use as even if only 1% of my pop less is sick its worth the 1 worker. I find in stage 3 esp getting 20-30 a day is not uncommon so 10% of that being 2-3 dose help thou small value. If you have to pick a vent is always a much larger increase than 2 bathhouses and cost about the same daily coal. Infirmary yes do handle the sick BUT they still cost you the labor of when that worker is sick vs a bathhouse stops them from getting sick in the first place. This means the worker never loses that day of labor.

That being said once you get convicts there pointless as who cares if a con is sick. So as said above do I feel there needed no. Are they useless no they can be useful. Outside of extreme thou I don't think you really get that many sick to make it worth. As I was hard pressed to find a time that even needed more than a single med post playing easy for example.

Some interesting points here. Let me first say that I am having a little trouble following your English (I'm not trying to insult you; it seems clear that it's not your first language), so I apologize for any misunderstandings in addressing your thoughts. I agree with your premise that, whether the higher incidence of sickness occurs from a lower base safety level or an increased chance of getting sick at any given safety level, it still ultimately means that there are going to be more sick people on higher difficulty levels of play.

I agree with the premise that we want Comfortable Quarters as a desirable law, and so you will get Bath House in passing in almost every playthrough. I also agree with your calculation that the coal cost can be translated to some number of workers working at the charcoal kiln at the point at which you have both, and we can compare that with the number of sick being prevented to find out if the bath houses are doing their work.

However, I think you gloss over the fact that a sick worker rarely, if ever, goes into treatment for 24 hours. This is especially true once you are on infirmaries, which for me, is actually before I even have kilns. This could be sub-optimal play, but I really don't need that much coal early and mid-game. The main reasons for coal are producing Stage 3 and 4 generator construction components and running ventilator plants. If you are juggling your workforce to avoid the worst of the toxic gas while still keeping them efficient, you only need one ventilator, and you can get by on zero in the early game. So the main thing I want to do with coal is produce the components, which again, I don't want to do until I have the efficiency tech upgrade, at which point I probably have an infirmary (I really value the Tier 3 and 4 technologies; I think they're the most useful in the scenario).

To get back to the main point, a sick person in an infirmary has a recovery time of something more like 6-8 hours. This means a sick person = 1/3 of a worker on Two Shifts, not 1 worker. I also am raising an eyebrow at a number like 20-30 sick per day, but you could be really driving for as quick a generator completion as possible (I've only played the scenario through twice outside of going for achievements, and I wasn't going for some kind of speed run; to me, the only relevant metric is getting home before the weather gets cold).

Both Overcrowding and Extra Rations for the Ill have the same effect mathematically if you don't have unlimited engineers to staff medical posts (in which case Extra Rations would be better), which is to process sick people more efficiently. I go Overcrowding because I don't have to pay as much attention. As Zephiel points out, a single overcrowded infirmary can handle 20 sick people at once. That's more than enough unless you have an accident.

In any case, I really think I'm quibbling over minutiae at this point, since you even state multiple times that this is hardly a vital difference, and I completely agree with this. Turn them on, don't turn them on . . . neither choice is going to make or break your run.

[Your Death]

Bathhouse is a trap, as well as sawmill/kilns. I never go this way on Survival.
Go fast infirmaries, that will do. Oh, and keep your construction cite safe (no more dangerous than harmful).

[amordron]

@everiso

I agree with most of what you said thou a few points.

A infirmy takes 15 hours to get someone our not 24 yes 24 is med tents.

The 30 percent motivation makes that faster at approx 11 hours to get them out.

So yes 1 worker saved via sick would only be worth about half a two shift worker you are right on that. So saving 2-3 sick a day is about neutral on sick when two shift is everywhere. But as your not likly to be using two shift on the gen buildings and the sick you get should only be from the gen buildings as the other buildings have no toxic gas or cold to cause sick this is a bit skewed. It’s more likly the sick is from the gen that is on normal or short shifts.

Sickness norm hits between 12-4 them taking about an hour to walk to the med building from my experience. This means treatment starts at 1-5. 11 hours treatment means 12-16 as such if on short shift you have missed the entire shift if the sick happened near 4 so a full worker l. If early on the might get half a shift. So I would say the real value of one worker would be in the range of saving 1 sick being about equal to 3/4 of a worker in the gen. Unless you really are running two shift on the gen but that’s a whole lot more coal. I tend to be on normal or short shifts until convicts that it dosent matter so two shift. Bathhouse means ♥♥♥♥ for convicts also.

As you said it’s really such a small boost if any it comes down to if you got the spare coal no reason not to turn it on for stage 2 where your likly to have the coal stage 3 if eng with convicts it’s pointless as eng don’t work in the gen and convicts we don’t care but if builder side having it for stage 3 if you got the coal is not a bad idea just will be a vary minor aid.

Outside of extreme thou I wouldent even think about it as sick levels are low anyways.

I do go for quick completion with my best so far being a perfect gen pre day 32 on extreme. So you have the gen and all production buildings going at once as more workers in the pit this raises sick levels. If only doing one at a time ya sickness levels are lower and bathhouse value falls. It really depends on sick levels.

But yes overall bathhouse is weak but not useless which was the main point.

[Everisto]

Originally posted by amordron:

@everiso

I agree with most of what you said thou a few points.

A infirmy takes 15 hours to get someone our not 24 yes 24 is med tents.

The 30 percent motivation makes that faster at approx 11 hours to get them out.

So yes 1 worker saved via sick would only be worth about half a two shift worker you are right on that. So saving 2-3 sick a day is about neutral on sick when two shift is everywhere. But as your not likly to be using two shift on the gen buildings and the sick you get should only be from the gen buildings as the other buildings have no toxic gas or cold to cause sick this is a bit skewed. It’s more likly the sick is from the gen that is on normal or short shifts.

Sickness norm hits between 12-4 them taking about an hour to walk to the med building from my experience. This means treatment starts at 1-5. 11 hours treatment means 12-16 as such if on short shift you have missed the entire shift if the sick happened near 4 so a full worker l. If early on the might get half a shift. So I would say the real value of one worker would be in the range of saving 1 sick being about equal to 3/4 of a worker in the gen. Unless you really are running two shift on the gen but that’s a whole lot more coal. I tend to be on normal or short shifts until convicts that it dosent matter so two shift. Bathhouse means ♥♥♥♥ for convicts also.

As you said it’s really such a small boost if any it comes down to if you got the spare coal no reason not to turn it on for stage 2 where your likly to have the coal stage 3 if eng with convicts it’s pointless as eng don’t work in the gen and convicts we don’t care but if builder side having it for stage 3 if you got the coal is not a bad idea just will be a vary minor aid.

Outside of extreme thou I wouldent even think about it as sick levels are low anyways.

I do go for quick completion with my best so far being a perfect gen pre day 32 on extreme. So you have the gen and all production buildings going at once as more workers in the pit this raises sick levels. If only doing one at a time ya sickness levels are lower and bathhouse value falls. It really depends on sick levels.

But yes overall bathhouse is weak but not useless which was the main point.

I see. The fact that you've actually run the numbers on the infirmary and such makes me want to defer to your clearly superior experience, so I will (I really don't have the hours put into the game to compete in this kind of discussion, and every sign points to you knowing what you're talking about).

Very cool to see that someone is playing at a high enough level to be tracking the timing on completion of the generator. If you ever record one of your runs, I'll be interested in watching it.

[Artek [General]]

Going back to the thread, i think what the bath needs is more effects than just preventing sickness. Preventing sickness at the cost of coal seems to be useless for the most time, considering there are better ways to prevent the sick (proper safety, good infarmary...).
Maybe if it gave motivation and / or reduced discontent when operational?
Or maybe boosts the recovery speed of patients while active?

[amordron]

Originally posted by Artek General:

Going back to the thread, i think what the bath needs is more effects than just preventing sickness. Preventing sickness at the cost of coal seems to be useless for the most time, considering there are better ways to prevent the sick (proper safety, good infarmary...).
Maybe if it gave motivation and / or reduced discontent when operational?
Or maybe boosts the recovery speed of patients while active?

To me a discontent drop would be the ideal. Right now there is few ways to lower discontent motivation feels good how it currently is but other than bouts there really is few ways to lower discontent. As it’s tied directly to strike chance some way to lower it would be nice and not a place and forget type building. Bathhouses work well for that as it has a coal cost as a trade of for the discontent reduce so you need to spend labor to produce coal and tech earlyer if you want it earlyer as need even more coal as a trade of to get more two shifts and less strikes from lower discontent.

Otherwise some event tied to the bathhouse that’s not just sex in the bathhouse that dose nothing. Something like you can allow them to have sex there to rise motivation but trade of down the line causes ill like the public house.

Or give it an active spend 10 rations and 50 coal to drop discontent 10 percent on a 2 day cool down to host a after shift pool party.

Making it so having healthcare in range of a bathhouse makes treatment 10 percent faster I could get behind also.

I would also like a way to boost its range by double but at the cost of twice as much coal. Right now it is hard to fit your pop in range of one and there shape is odd so placing two even dosent cover all nicely.

[Markus Reese]

I never had a use for em. Kept safety up and all was fine.

Their benefit more scales with difficulty where sickness etc can be much more problematic.

I do feel a motivation or discontent benefit would help. But discontent in autumn never felt an issue. Only motivation on engineers path.

[amordron]

Originally posted by twistedmelon:

I never had a use for em. Kept safety up and all was fine.

Their benefit more scales with difficulty where sickness etc can be much more problematic.

I do feel a motivation or discontent benefit would help. But discontent in autumn never felt an issue. Only motivation on engineers path.

That’s the trade of of the eng path if your able to keep motivation up with convicts it really would be to good vs builders. Motivation feels quite balanced to me right now don’t think there should be more boosts to it to make eng to good. Discontent is never really a issue but the lower you keep it the more labor you save feels like a good way to buff it to me.