Population cap?

[DB]

My city seems to stop growing after i have 700 people. Even if some die off, no more new refugees show up.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Xaneorath:

Hm. Still quite silly how the achievements are scaled then, if you want to grab achievements with your endless run. I sure wasted some time between those last few storms, checking for a few more survivors (Im at 634) for those last two Achievements which I am missing.
Reading now, after spending way too much time on this, that I have to inform myself about the pop cap and then have to screw around with intentionaly killing off my scout teams to get those last two achievements sounds ... very underwhelming. Especialy since Im playing on Extreme and I doubt Ill find 100 people on the first attempt...

I dont mind if they have to cap it, but they really should keep the achievements at that cap, so anyone can achieve them by playing the game, without having to get extra information from outside...

The 700 pop achiv you get in serenity mode not endurance so don’t need to screw around with killing at all. The max pop there is 790 thou the same point poeople stop appearing 600 as 190 appear per storm you get it with trying more often that not.

Furthermore the 700 pop achiv counts autos so you don’t need to screw around killing you just add autos to the cap.

Or you do it on a new home that a good run will get you well over 700 people not one person said the 700 pop achiv was from endless and if I remember correctly has been there since before endless was ever made.

So no it’s not silly in the least how the achivments are made you are just attempting to earn in the wrong place. Rather silly to attempt to earn something where it’s not meant to be earned.

[Xaneorath]

Originally posted by amordron:

Originally posted by Xaneorath:

Hm. Still quite silly how the achievements are scaled then, if you want to grab achievements with your endless run. I sure wasted some time between those last few storms, checking for a few more survivors (Im at 634) for those last two Achievements which I am missing.
Reading now, after spending way too much time on this, that I have to inform myself about the pop cap and then have to screw around with intentionaly killing off my scout teams to get those last two achievements sounds ... very underwhelming. Especialy since Im playing on Extreme and I doubt Ill find 100 people on the first attempt...

I dont mind if they have to cap it, but they really should keep the achievements at that cap, so anyone can achieve them by playing the game, without having to get extra information from outside...

The 700 pop achiv you get in serenity mode not endurance so don’t need to screw around with killing at all. The max pop there is 790 thou the same point poeople stop appearing 600 as 190 appear per storm you get it with trying more often that not.

Furthermore the 700 pop achiv counts autos so you don’t need to screw around killing you just add autos to the cap.

Or you do it on a new home that a good run will get you well over 700 people not one person said the 700 pop achiv was from endless and if I remember correctly has been there since before endless was ever made.

So no it’s not silly in the least how the achivments are made you are just attempting to earn in the wrong place. Rather silly to attempt to earn something where it’s not meant to be earned.

Eh, I don't see why anyone would need to enforce playing on difficulty levels which players might consider boring, just to get all the achievements. ;) There is a reason why "solve that difficulty"-Achievements usualy include lower difficulties on completion...
Besides, the game doesn't really communicate that population cap, unless you search for the information because you already hit it. So no... its not silly to search at the wrong place, because if you just started off with going all Extreme, like I did, there is no reason at all to expect that population cap. I did guess there would be a cap somewhere, but since the achievements went up to 700 I believed it might be there or slightly higher, but certainly not lower than that.
SO, as it stands I couldve stopped that extreme run various hours earlier, when I got that last Autonom achievement. Still I played on for various more hours, faithfuly thinking I can get the population achievements too, while I was still at ~ 400 pop or such.
And lets be honest about that: Endless Extreme becomes an incredibly boring chore at the point, where the game cant really throw anything at you anymore. You can just ignore most things because of a pretty much failsafe game state (except for triggering activated abilities sometimes, moving scouts around and triggering the overdrive at temperatures above 100). Yet still it needs time to get all the achievements out of it. Its pretty much farming at that point.
Would I have known that I can only get the 600pop achievement in that extreme run, I surely wouldve stopped it a lot earlier, as there is no point with higher pop achievements being around ... (On the one hand if Im missing 2 pop achievements anyways, I wouldnt care about missing one more. On the other hand attempting the other 2 will most likely also include that one.)

So: Sorry, but I stick to my opinion. Those two achievements are a silly design flaw.

[Xaneorath]

To add something: Since you say they are around since before Endless Mode was made, I guess its somewhat of a legacy thing.

I would NOT consider it a design flaw with only Scenarios around. Why? Because with a scenario you would expect various caps, like the amount of people you can get as a maximum.

It differs for Endless Mode though, since you would expect it to be more or less "endless". At least it should hit the upper limits at some point. And because of this I think its perfectly reasonable to expect any "get that much ressources"-Achievement to be collectable in that mode.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Xaneorath:

Originally posted by amordron:

The 700 pop achiv you get in serenity mode not endurance so don’t need to screw around with killing at all. The max pop there is 790 thou the same point poeople stop appearing 600 as 190 appear per storm you get it with trying more often that not.

Furthermore the 700 pop achiv counts autos so you don’t need to screw around killing you just add autos to the cap.

Or you do it on a new home that a good run will get you well over 700 people not one person said the 700 pop achiv was from endless and if I remember correctly has been there since before endless was ever made.

So no it’s not silly in the least how the achivments are made you are just attempting to earn in the wrong place. Rather silly to attempt to earn something where it’s not meant to be earned.

Eh, I don't see why anyone would need to enforce playing on difficulty levels which players might consider boring, just to get all the achievements. ;) There is a reason why "solve that difficulty"-Achievements usualy include lower difficulties on completion...
Besides, the game doesn't really communicate that population cap, unless you search for the information because you already hit it. So no... its not silly to search at the wrong place, because if you just started off with going all Extreme, like I did, there is no reason at all to expect that population cap. I did guess there would be a cap somewhere, but since the achievements went up to 700 I believed it might be there or slightly higher, but certainly not lower than that.
SO, as it stands I couldve stopped that extreme run various hours earlier, when I got that last Autonom achievement. Still I played on for various more hours, faithfuly thinking I can get the population achievements too, while I was still at ~ 400 pop or such.
And lets be honest about that: Endless Extreme becomes an incredibly boring chore at the point, where the game cant really throw anything at you anymore. You can just ignore most things because of a pretty much failsafe game state (except for triggering activated abilities sometimes, moving scouts around and triggering the overdrive at temperatures above 100). Yet still it needs time to get all the achievements out of it. Its pretty much farming at that point.
Would I have known that I can only get the 600pop achievement in that extreme run, I surely wouldve stopped it a lot earlier, as there is no point with higher pop achievements being around ... (On the one hand if Im missing 2 pop achievements anyways, I wouldnt care about missing one more. On the other hand attempting the other 2 will most likely also include that one.)

So: Sorry, but I stick to my opinion. Those two achievements are a silly design flaw.

As said you can get the 700 pop achivment in that extreme run you had. Autos count towards the 700 pop achivment and you where at 630 as per your post you are allowed to have 75 cores that can be used for autos resulting in more than 700. You picked a mode that achivment is not made for so yes it’s harder to do there that is on you for picking a harder mode. It was not impossible to get there which is a key diff. It is not a flaw in the achivment the achivment is only to get 700 pop and is possible in all 3 endless mode types on all diffs as well as a new home. The places you get it easy are a new home builders and serenity mode. You just picked the worst option of the 4 nothing more. Your pick did not make it impossible only difficult which it should be as endurance is the hardest of the 3 endless modes while playing on extreme to boot. Also if you where only at 400 pop when finishing the no auto achivments will also add there is some key flaws to your build as norm will hit pop cap around day 30-35 ish on endurance.

So as said no you where not forced onto a mode that you dislike. You are made to adjust your build to the harder mode if you want to do it there but that is the choice of playing the harder mode it is not forcing you to play the easier mode key diff.

Yes it is vary much silly to expect to play on a hard diff and have everything handed to you without effort. You could get the achivment that run it was not impossible only difficult.

Also frostpunk is not a game where playing on harder diff reward what’s below it other games doing that dosent mean much. You can see this by any of the win on hard achivments not being rewarded if won on extreme before winning on hard.

[Xaneorath]

Originally posted by amordron:

As said you can get the 700 pop achivment in that extreme run you had. Autos count towards the 700 pop achivment and you where at 630 as per your post you are allowed to have 75 cores that can be used for autos resulting in more than 700. You picked a mode that achivment is not made for so yes it’s harder to do there that is on you for picking a harder mode. It was not impossible to get there which is a key diff. It is not a flaw in the achivment the achivment is only to get 700 pop and is possible in all 3 endless mode types on all diffs as well as a new home. The places you get it easy are a new home builders and serenity mode. You just picked the worst option of the 4 nothing more. Your pick did not make it impossible only difficult which it should be as endurance is the hardest of the 3 endless modes while playing on extreme to boot. Also if you where only at 400 pop when finishing the no auto achivments will also add there is some key flaws to your build as norm will hit pop cap around day 30-35 ish on endurance.

75 Cores? Really? Hm. Certainly feels like less (allthough my Expeditions already dont seem to find new ones anymore.) Id say if I wreck all my Core Buildings and count the Automatons, I might be at ~45 Cores top. Plus a few cores invested in safely getting Archive Stuff and a certain game event.
Anyhow: What you completly ignore here, is that the pop amount I gave might already include the automatons (because of myself not considering it). So no. I need more population than I could possibly get anymore without killing off scouts and hoping to find enough afterwards in the state my current game is in. And you can find my opinion about this at the beginning of the discussion...

Also, btw, your first answer kind of implies the complete opposite to "As said you can get the 700 pop achievment in that extreme run you had.". At that point you said:

Originally posted by amordron:

The 700 pop achiv you get in serenity mode not endurance so don’t need to screw around with killing at all.

And honestly, I daresay its not surprising, if that whole post of yours gave me the impression it might as well be entirely impossible in extreme.

I picked the mode because I enjoyed the challenge/difficulty, not especialy to go for achievements, but after I did it, I guessed I might as well aim for whatever achievement I can still grab with it. And for this reasoning you find my impression of the achievement in my 2nd post here.

Originally posted by amordron:

Yes it is vary much silly to expect to play on a hard diff and have everything handed to you without effort. You could get the achivment that run it was not impossible only difficult.

Also frostpunk is not a game where playing on harder diff reward what’s below it other games doing that dosent mean much. You can see this by any of the win on hard achivments not being rewarded if won on extreme before winning on hard.

Eh, while I certainly respect the game for its initial difficulty, I honestly do think it pretty much plays itself in the end of extreme endless. And there is a difference between "effort in figuring out things" and "effort in being patient". Many of the lategame achievements from extreme endless falling in the later category.
So .. I do not think I expect anything given without effort here (allthough the effort was more of the "enduring" kind in the end. Sorry, just had to do that pun here.).
So .. communication errors in me understanding your first answer post as "its not possible in endless extreme" aside, we are also back to my first argument of critique here: The achievement goes out of the game environment itself into understanding its technological limitations.
In that regard you convinced me that I was wrong with one statement: you dont necessary need to check online for the reasons, but might figure that out yourself with some effort too. True. But it still breaks the immersion of the game environment itself, as you first have to consider some sort of technical limit and then you gotta experiment with killing off people to overcome it. With the wording of the achievement itself giving no reason to expect this.

Anyways. Ill stick to thinking its a legacy thing with the endless mode being introduced later than the achievements. I can certainly understand the achievement with "New Home" and wouldn't doubt it for this scenario.

Lets just agree in disagreeing in our subjective evaluation of those achievements. You might have pride in getting them while figuring things out (which by no means I want to belittle), but I had another less pleasant game experience with it, and think it might need revised wording or perhaps being a secret achievement.

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

Builders mode has a max human pop of at least 812, pretty sure you can 650 in New Home (I had 636 but lost 2 scout teams).

[amordron]

Originally posted by Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia:

Builders mode has a max human pop of at least 812, pretty sure you can 650 in New Home (I had 636 but lost 2 scout teams).

Builders cap has been shown to be 849 via saving a storm shelter, I haven't broke 800 myself but never try for it via saving for a shelter. It uses serenity rules but storm shelters can appear for longer than serenity resulting in a slightly higher max cap. sernity caps at 789. These numbers are both pre autos.

A new home you can hit with autos and not exploiting to get more cores just under 800 my best has been 740 but others have done higher. Crystal daz has a vid of him at 750. 700 is the max non auto pop you can get thou dose vary a few here and there via rng on amount of people at each location.

Endurance has the lowest at 694 pre autos. You are always able to kill your pop down to just under 600 pre auto pop to spawn a full storms worth of pop in endurance this means 95 people. This means for the other guys case even if he has autos making him 635 vary easy to reduce pop below 600 and get 694 or right near it should he choice to and as such push over 700. Choosing not to is on him there is nothing silly at all about the game making it more difficult to get an achievement on a harder mode esp when that mode was not where the achievement was made for. Ulti comes down to it vary much is not impossible on the diff and mode hes on he only needs to put a bit of work in this means farming cores till core cap to get 75 autos and 625+ normal pop or killing people of to boost his pop the later is much easier. Alternatively playing on a mode made to get said achievement. Its no different than trying to get worse than london in the last autumn dlc. Yes you can do it with only making tents but dosen't reward as far as I know as no option to upgrade them there. A mode not made for a achievement should not be made around said achievement. If you can get it there its a bonus nothing more. You should NOT expect to get all achievements everywhere.

[Xaneorath]

Alright, I kind of wanted to let it be at this point and not prolong the discussion any further, but since you apparently have the strong urge to belittle my own opinion and subjective experience on this situation and achievement, I just have to repeat my core arguments, which you blatantly ignore while sticking to "you gotta know where to farm the achievements":

* Neither the wording nor the name of the achievements implies that you have to use a certain mode to get it. For most achievements it is clear that you will have to do them in a certain mode. But we are talking about "get x ressources"-achievements here (with population seen as "resource"). I still think it is entirely reasonable to expect an "endless" mode to be able to collect any ressource up to the cap.

*And yes, you showed how it is still possible, BUT you still have to figure out technical aspects of the game to do so (the population limit) and most likely need a trick to achieve it, if you played in a high enough difficulty. It breaks the boundaries of the game environment for an achievement, which sounds like a simple "collect some more"-thing. And yes, I personaly think this is misleading, silly and not elegant.

I do NOT "expect to get all achievements everywhere", nor do I expect achivements to be thrown at me with no effort.