Is wendy too strong?

[WiseCog]

Legit question. Is she? I personally think she is insanely fun to play. But yea, she feels overpowered even for a game such as this (pve). Let me explain why:
She makes surviving a breeze if she finds spider nests or killer bee hives. I often manage to gather like 30-40 silk and like 60-80 monster meat meat my first night when I play her. On top of that, I can choose to instead gather 40 honey without destroying a single hive, by farming killer bees. If none of these set pieces or biomes spawn (spider quarry, spider queen gathering, killer hive biome or finally killer hive grass set piece), then I can still farm rabbits in loads and I can do all this without ever spending a single resource and HEALTH (and I think it does not count for krampus as well).

I think perhaps its a bit to powerfull being able to farm 40 honey in one day or 40 silk (continously also, which means like 120-200 honey in a matter of DAYS, the first 3-5 days). I didnt even take into account spider glands or stingers (stingers is like 100 a day, glands 20-30).

Does she make the game too easy to survive (silk gives evey clothing needed for winter and summer, food like honey and monster meat makes food very easy to obtain) or is she just the perfect character for new players, or/and casual play?

[JPM岩]

Silk, honey, and monster meat, has never been hard to get to begin with, so using that as a reference is really dumb. How Wendy works well, is that early game and basic survival survival, she excels, and easy fights like Deerclops, who really isnt hard and can be solo'd easy, or Antlion or Crab King, who dont move, she can shred through. However, bulkier bosses, like bearger, fuelweaver, dragonfly, etc, she cant do as much due to just getting shredded. Her sisturn also allows folks to have a sanity restore station.
Later game stuff requires her to really prep up, doing stuff for pipspooks and getting a lot of ecoherbology. Technically, Abigail solo cannot kill a deerclops, so theres that to keep in mind.
If there were to be tweaks, itd be tricky I feel. Making her less used potions more viable, and making her good stuff more expensive. For new players, she's more complex, however, she does teach new players about being smart, and allows players to better adjust themselves to learning more mechanics, such as character crafting, and more world exploring with pipspooks.

[WiseCog]

Originally posted by JPM岩:

Silk, honey, and monster meat, has never been hard to get to begin with, so using that as a reference is really dumb. How Wendy works well, is that early game and basic survival survival, she excels, and easy fights like Deerclops, who really isnt hard and can be solo'd easy, or Antlion or Crab King, who dont move, she can shred through. However, bulkier bosses, like bearger, fuelweaver, dragonfly, etc, she cant do as much due to just getting shredded. Her sisturn also allows folks to have a sanity restore station.
Later game stuff requires her to really prep up, doing stuff for pipspooks and getting a lot of ecoherbology. Technically, Abigail solo cannot kill a deerclops, so theres that to keep in mind.
If there were to be tweaks, itd be tricky I feel. Making her less used potions more viable, and making her good stuff more expensive. For new players, she's more complex, however, she does teach new players about being smart, and allows players to better adjust themselves to learning more mechanics, such as character crafting, and more world exploring with pipspooks.

It was never about how "hard" it was to get (I mean I can play solo with wes and kill bunch of spiders with the right gear or traps (but it takes a long time). It's actually about how time consuming it is for every other character but her. Wendy can litteraly stand still and put abigail on aggresive and not even move to kill spider or bees. Also rabbits are very time consuming or costly (most of the time not worth the hunt for most characters), but with abigail no effort is needed. Abigal could not solo any bosses imo, but wendy herself can. She is just weaker then others against bosses. But against a lot of other things id say she is still extremely strong.

I myself am not certain about her. She feels a little easy to play, and gets an insane headstart. Like it said, mention one character that can farm 80+ monster meat in the first night of the game. Its strong, very strong. And every character could farm those spiders, but rarely without damage, and not without a weapon in hand or other resource requirements like traps or moose doll. BUT I still don't think it would be easy to tweak her.

[Dragontoast]

I personally think they made Abigail too strong.
Think of BERNIE! and Willow's refresh in general.
The lighter isn't infinite(even for just Willow) because it would supposedly be OP.
BERNIE! has restrictions based on sanity, slow single target attacks, and requires a sewing kit to fix him.

Abigail meanwhile can be refreshed instantly, provides infinite light after 1 day, has an AOE that hits just as hard as BERNIE! and much faster(with more range too), and can be buffed with craftables unlocked later, her attacks are also just as good at "taunting" as BERNIE!'s occasional aggro steals.

This isn't even mentioning how strong Abi is for resource gathering/farming, just a straight comparison at how OP this refresh is compared to one of the first refreshes. I hope they go back to Willow and BERNIE! later on, it feels like they had too much restraint in that refresh and not enough in Wendy's.

[Ozzey_Lee]

Webber can farm that much monster meat at the start of the game, Wigfrid should be able to also. Wendy has strengths sure but they don't extend to resource gathering like Maxwell's shadows do, or max exploration like Woodie nor boss killing like Wolfgang or end game farming like Wikkerbottom.

Rabbits are kiteable but surprisingly most people wont do it, with any weapon for most characters it is a one hit kill or two with fists.

Abigail makes some aspects easier for sure and more efficient too but other characters have the same potential without needing a significant amount of skill to compensate.

[Mr. Aqua]

Wendy certainly feels like she power creeps on other characters (power creeping is when one thing gets stronger than another and makes the other obeselete). Webber especially is at fault of this, and I would wager that Wigfrid is too. We all know that these two characters can gather the same resources, but they take longer and require more materials than just right clicking on a flower. As the OP mentioned, Wendy is just more quick and efficient than the other two, making a mandane task into a effortless one.

I really don't like the idea of when Abigail dies you can just resummon her again. Sure, she isn't at max HP anymore and doesn't give off light, but it only takes a couple days before the stats kick in. Being able to instantly resummon her makes her death feel meaningless. Compare this to the way she used to be, where you had to wait after she died. It forced the player to behave more carefully and know when to use her. Now its just kill everything all the time with no consequences.

I understand that the reworks weren't really supposed to include downsides, but I feel like Wendy definitely needs one given how strong Abi is. While it is true that she does less damage, the fact that Abi grants +40% damage from other sources on mobs she hits kind of makes Wendy's -25% damage meaningless. And yes, Abi can't be used very well on bosses. All that means is that Wendy has to kite them herself, and with -25% damage that just means the fight will take longer. So her downsides aren't really enough to balance just how strong Abi is.

[WiseCog]

Originally posted by Ozzey_Lee:

Webber can farm that much monster meat at the start of the game, Wigfrid should be able to also. Wendy has strengths sure but they don't extend to resource gathering like Maxwell's shadows do, or max exploration like Woodie nor boss killing like Wolfgang or end game farming like Wikkerbottom.

Rabbits are kiteable but surprisingly most people wont do it, with any weapon for most characters it is a one hit kill or two with fists.

Abigail makes some aspects easier for sure and more efficient too but other characters have the same potential without needing a significant amount of skill to compensate.

No webber can not gather as quickly or as safe as wendy. Iv'e tested them both extensively. Webber kills 1-2 by the time wendy kills 5-15 (and this is not a joke). Wolfgang and wigfrid is even better at this than webber. Unless of course you are talking abut spider wars, which is also far slower, because it requires preparation with meat to give to spiders, and fake-hit spiders sometimes does not trigger a full scale war (and with spider wars you need to gather meat right away from the ground or they get eaten). 2 monster meat which webber starts with is not enough to start farming and gaining up to 80 monster meat in first night. Wendy can do this without ANY resource used and way quicker. And webber cant kill 100 bees in a matter of minutes without preparation (or even at all actually).

I am sorry but webber is low tier IMO so he is not a good comparison. He needs a rework before anyone else at this point.

[WiseCog]

Originally posted by Mr. Aqua:

Wendy certainly feels like she power creeps on other characters (power creeping is when one thing gets stronger than another and makes the other obeselete). Webber especially is at fault of this, and I would wager that Wigfrid is too. We all know that these two characters can gather the same resources, but they take longer and require more materials than just right clicking on a flower. As the OP mentioned, Wendy is just more quick and efficient than the other two, making a mandane task into a effortless one.

I really don't like the idea of when Abigail dies you can just resummon her again. Sure, she isn't at max HP anymore and doesn't give off light, but it only takes a couple days before the stats kick in. Being able to instantly resummon her makes her death feel meaningless. Compare this to the way she used to be, where you had to wait after she died. It forced the player to behave more carefully and know when to use her. Now its just kill everything all the time with no consequences.

I understand that the reworks weren't really supposed to include downsides, but I feel like Wendy definitely needs one given how strong Abi is. While it is true that she does less damage, the fact that Abi grants +40% damage from other sources on mobs she hits kind of makes Wendy's -25% damage meaningless. And yes, Abi can't be used very well on bosses. All that means is that Wendy has to kite them herself, and with -25% damage that just means the fight will take longer. So her downsides aren't really enough to balance just how strong Abi is.

Yea, wendy actually gains high damage due to abigails extra damage AND the damage she gives wendy every second.

PS: Agree with what you said. Limiting her spawn rate IF she dies is a good way to nerf her and still have her strength untouched. I mean I like Wendy and a part of me hopes she stays this way because shes so strong and fun to farm with, but then some other characters should receive buffs because playing with her feels a little like cheating, or someone holding my hand.

EDIT: Having said this, I do think werebeaver is completely op as well. Gathering like 100 woods in a a matter of minutes (but he looses all his food in the process requiring us to prepare at least). Its hard to balance a game such as this, sometimes OP is more fun.

[Airvanz]

How about insanity and Ruins Nightmare Creature? lets forget "Celestial Portal" and try To farm Nighmare Fuel using Wendy,Abigail its Pretty Much useles and Wendy Become Wes in front of nightmare creature, a Bunch of Nightmare creature then Newcomer less experienced Wendy With log suit and Spear Will be Dead

Boses with AoE Demage will always Wreck Abigail and left Wendy alone with Wes Demage but there is Ectoherbology to cover Abigail Weakness that need grind to make it, other hand Willow You need a 20% Durability of Sewing kit or Winona Tape to Make Bernie Wake up and Fight with full HP and Willow Deal normal Demage,fire Immunity and Low Sanity

Wendy its Hard to insane but Need to wait Abigail Reach Level 3 to get High Hp and Use Potion to Make Abigail Stronger,So WE have Willow and Bernie that Will Protect anything but Weak at Crowd Control then Wendy and Abigail its Bad At Strong Single Enemy with AoE Demage and Nightmare Creature, See a Balance? or Still not Satiesfied?

You Go Ruins As Willow You will in trouble with The monkey but NO with the Shadow

You Go Ruins As Wendy You will in trouble with The Shadow but NO with the Monkey

Still not Satiesfied?

[Ozzey_Lee]

@Greenpakto, Abigail can't safely kill spiders without taking damage and spider warriors in large enough numbers will kill her. Webber forcing spider wars will out pace Abigail's rate of killing since when she dies you have to resummon her. Webber will kill more in the long run and more efficiently too. He can also live with them so whenever you want just start another war.

By the time she gets 15 spiders kill webber is well above that and going strong because the spiders all attack each other meaning there is a much higher dps then using wendy. Not to mention Abigail gets pushed by the spiders and enough spider warriors will force you to keep resummoning her.

Yes she is capable of farming spiders but nothing like killing bees and no as efficiently as webber who only needs 1 meat.

[Strelok]

Nope, not at all. Every character has their own strengths and advantages over each other and saying that Wendy is too OP because she easily farms silk and honey is like saying that Maxwell is OP because he gathers rocks and logs too easily. She just happens to excel at crowd control over weak mobs...but that doesn't make her OP in the slightest. Other characters have their own advantages and domains where they far outclass her, this is what makes the game fun in the first place...characters with different strengths and weaknesses which are made to fit the wide variety of players and playstyles. Anyway, you asked for us to name one character who kills spiders and bees as quick as Abigail. I will choose Woodie for that comparison as he can easily take the Weremoose form with just 3 monster meats and 2 grass and kill any number of bees and spiders you throw at him by just rightclicking point A and point B. He actually does it faster and more efficiently than Abigail because:
1. He doesn't need to wait for the night in order to do full damage to them.
2. He does more damage, precisely 59.5 per hit, which means that if you aim properly and know how to lead the crowds of mobs you can wipe out dozens of them in just 2 quick sweeps.
There you go, i named you a character who is just as good as Wendy at destroying armies of mobs only that he needs to gather some monster meat and grass first but that disadvantage is offset by the reliability of his form, i am not even going to start talking about his other forms which makes him good on more domains than just small mob farming like Wendy, making him an overall stronger character than her. Now, i hope next time a character gets buffed you are not going to just start saying that they are too OP and demand a nerf in the forums, nerfs always ruin games anyway by making good weapons and abilities feel weak, making the players to stop using them altogether...if you want an actual nerf for something try and ask for a counter-ability for them to keep the game more diverse, but you don't have to because you already got that *Abigail's silk gathering is too easy* nerf in the form of Woodie :)
PS: getting that much silk is not a big deal anyway because you most likely won't need more than one stack for your first autumn and winter. Complain about OPness when there will be a character who has a way too easy time getting high amounts of rare items like gems or something. That being said, have a nice day/evening

[Mr. Aqua]

Originally posted by Ozzey_Lee:

@Greenpakto, Abigail can't safely kill spiders without taking damage and spider warriors in large enough numbers will kill her. Webber forcing spider wars will out pace Abigail's rate of killing since when she dies you have to resummon her. Webber will kill more in the long run and more efficiently too. He can also live with them so whenever you want just start another war.

By the time she gets 15 spiders kill webber is well above that and going strong because the spiders all attack each other meaning there is a much higher dps then using wendy. Not to mention Abigail gets pushed by the spiders and enough spider warriors will force you to keep resummoning her.

Yes she is capable of farming spiders but nothing like killing bees and no as efficiently as webber who only needs 1 meat.

Remember that one issue with Webber farming spiders is that usually it can only be done during dusk or night, simply because Webber doesn't spawn spiders when walking on the web. Wendy and Abigail do not have this problem.

I do not see how Webber is more efficient than Abi in any way. Part of it has to do with how the spiders will constantly try to eat the monster meat during a spider war. I have not had this same issue when using Abi because of how she will constantly keep the spider's attention by attacking them.

The fact that Abigail takes damage or needs to be resummoned isn't really a great reason to excuse how strong she is at farming spiders. Taking damage is an expected part of using her; there's no way around that. Damage to Abi isn't detrimental either, especially with tonics or just resummonings. In addition, the whole resummoning animation isn't long enough to minimize Abi's efficiency. Typically by the time the animation has finished the spiders will still remain out of their web. The player could also just get their aggro, run a distance and then resummon and do it again. It simply isn't a process that takes long enough to dismiss Abi's power.

[Ozzey_Lee]

@Mr. Aqua

Webber can attack one nest with his fist, then run away, feed any spider and tell it to attack that same nest. If you've placed them together when that spider gets attacked all of the spiders will spawn and start a war at any time.

This doesn't discredit wendy at all and spider will eat meat no matter what, combat or not. Aggro on Abigail or spider doesn't matter. As Webber just hold space and pick up everything as it drops prioritizing meat. When it stops pick up the rest.

Not to discredit abigail but Webber is just as if not more efficient.

[Chesmu]

I have not tested it yet, but Wendy is now a lot modern, and yes, even more powerful.

You can't compare DST characters to each-other since they have major differences and roles, but if you compare Wendy to her own past state, she is way stronger and cooler now.

[Wariat117]

from your description it sounds like current wendy is just weaker version of wickerbottom

[WiseCog]

Thank you for all the responses people, this is the answers I was looking for. I still don't think webber compares to abigails spider farming though (but he can farm better than everyone else, early days, but weremoose comes close), but though there are other good points.
Try this tactic below and let me know what you feel afterwards.

-When dusk comes put Abigail on protection mode close to queens gathering set piece (best effect) and attack a spider that are outside the nest, make sure that you keep enough distance that yellow spiders won't come out because they can kill her easily first nights (and even at 600 hp if they are more than 3 I think), because she cant stunlock those, but also make sure to stay close enough for many black spider to come. Don't forget to position yourself so that the spiders attack abigail first. Wait and see what happens, and then repeat when all close ones are dead (abigail will lure and kill all black spiders in a few second and you can sit there afking, no need to grab meat every second even because abigail will keep their aggro). This tactic does NOT require spider quarry or spider queen set piece but its way more powerful with them, so I suggest this is where you test this.

About bees. Yes bees are easy to kill and kite with every character, but what makes Wendy so strong here is that she kills them in a matter of seconds without effort and they respawn in a matter of seconds, so you can farm endlessly in a killer bee hive biome (or the grass killer set piece even). You just need to leave the sight of them and come back for them to spawn out again, or move to next beehives and then back. This will result in about 40-80 honey on first day, IF you find this biome only though. Honey is powerful because it spoils slowly.

PS: @Mr. Aqua very good points that I do think is true.
@Dragontoast Agreed, Willow might be stronger than before but does not come close to Wendy's rework.
@Strelok I do agree about Woodie as a scout and harvester (VERY strong, but not as strong as wendy as harvester, but close second). But his scouting is pretty much the best in the game.