All characters should be able to cook on Willow's Lighter. (It's not OP!)

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Short version: I think all characters being able to cook on Willow's Lighter would be a good change for her refresh and it wouldn't be overpowered.

Full Version

On the recent Klei Stream[www.twitch.tv] they talked about cooking on Willow's lighter being "a good bonus" and that it might be "overpowered" to allow other characters to cook on it.

Whether or not it may be so (a point I will touch on later in this post) I would like to start a discussion on why it may be a good change to include.

I wanted to include a timestamp in the video where they talked about this topic specifically but I didn't record the time when they originally said it on Thursday. I watched about 15 minutes trying to find it but couldn't find it so if you find it before me please share.

It could be a good bonus to help reduce her griefing image

Willow is viewed by some as the "griefing" character which I believe is a view most shared by newer/inexperienced players. Starting with the lighter and fire resistance is great for consistent early griefing but out of other character unique griefing abilities (Wicker's Tentacle and maybe Webber's spider den.) a torch is so easy incredibly easy to craft and fire damage can easily be avoided. I feel that, for anyone who wants to grief without being caught, there are also far more easier and more damaging methods than Willow's lighter. Willow's abilities allow for easier lazy griefing which I think is a serious issue.

If other characters can use Willow's lighter to cook their food, and Willow crafts and share's her lighter's with others I feel this would improve newer/less experienced players perception of her. Associating Willow's lighter with cooking would be a positive interaction between her and other players (far more positive than being used to burn down the base). I feel that this would help out less experienced players more, where Willow has a larger issue related to griefing, and that this would be a great change. Lastly since Willow got a buff that makes her early game griefing even stronger (full fire immunity, which I fully support) more changes to improve her interactions in the early game/to newer players would be a welcome addition.

Different methods of cooking food are already so cheap (Firepit, Campfire.) that food can be cooked with many items in the game (as fuel in a firepit) that anyone being able to cook with Willow's lighter would likely be a very minor buff.

Would it really be overpowered?

Just a random list of bonuses, in no particular order, that I feel are far better than this potential buff. Just take this as my personal opinion and not a definite list of strengths.

Amazing to game breaking

• Wickerbottom's books
  
• Wendy's sanity station
  
• Wolfgang's mighty form
  
• WX78 Overcharge
  
• WX78 gear consumption
  
• WX78 stats
  
• Winona's structure's
  
• Wortox healing

Strong

• Wortox teleporting
  
• Wortox soul consumption
  
• Wendy's sister
  
• Wigfrid's combat bonuses
  
• Wigfrid's unique gear
  
• Maxwell's dapperness
  
• Maxwell's shadow's
  
• Willow's Bernie in current form
  
• Webber's spider perk

Nice

• Wilson's beard
  
• Webber's beard
  
• Webber's stat buff
  
• Winona's crafting perk
  
• Woodie's Lucy/Lumberjack buff

Not a complete definitive list but out of all these bonuses (and a lot more I didn't add or forgot about) I wouldn't classify cooking with the lighter to be overpowered at all. If anything it would probably be a nice quality of life change that isn't a significant buff to her at all.

Would it be bad to include this.

I am extremely biased to including this change and haven't considered any negative impact this change could cause, since I legitimately believe it would be a solely good one. Please change my mind if you disagree.

Klei has considered this in the past.

Maybe a little off topic but there is code in the game that has been there for years (maybe back since 2014-15 during the closed Beta) to allow other characters to cook with Willow's lighter at a reduced rate. The current disabled penalty is to drain 5% durability and burn the character cooking. With mods it is possible to activate this functionality so Klei has definitely considered this ability in the past.

If you are curious feel free to open the game's files. Some of the code can be found on line 101 of lighter.lua.

local function oncook(inst, product, chef)
if not chef:HasTag("expertchef") then
--burn
if chef.components.health ~= nil then
chef.components.health:DoFireDamage(5, inst, true)
chef:PushEvent("burnt")
end
if inst.components.fueled ~= nil then
inst.components.fueled:DoDelta(-.05 * inst.components.fueled.maxfuel)
end
elseif inst.components.fueled ~= nil then
inst.components.fueled:DoDelta(-.01 * inst.components.fueled.maxfuel)
end
end

If you are curious how this could impact the game.

There is a mod on the workshop which allow's anyone to cook with her lighter. This could help you make your own decision if this is a good idea or not. You can find it here.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=970016673

Final thoughts

If you guys have anything to add please do or if I made a mistake, or think this would be a bad change, let me know. I am extremely biased to including this change.

As for how this change would personally impact me it doesn't matter if Klei include's it or not. I have used, and will continue to use, mods on my servers that allow others to use the Lighter's I gift them to cook their food.

[Dollmaker]

I agree, the lighters only perk is that it lasts longer than the Torch, but having a low radius (which should be larger) making it able to cook with other characters would make it a possible alternative has a portable light source, specially for characters like Wicker who has a Food downside, or when going in caves so you can cook Caps without the need of a campfire, maybe they could make it that cooking with other characters takes 3% of its durability rather than 1%, idk

[Chesmu]

Well, other players being able to cook on her lighter, will only change their perception of that single player who lets people do so. It will not stop the griefers from doing their job. So, it's kind of has zero affects towards that.

Letting other players use willow's lighter as a fire pit that they can cook, will annoy the player who plays as Willows. Because so many new/ old players will stick to her all the time to use the lighter.
Also it's not really fitting to cook foods on a small lighter.

So, It brings 2 logs and a fuel profit and in return annoys the player. I don't recommend.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by 🐉 Chesmu ☠:

Well, other players being able to cook on her lighter, will only change their perception of that single player who lets people do so. It will not stop the griefers from doing their job. So, it's kind of has zero affects towards that.

Letting other players use willow's lighter as a fire pit that they can cook, will annoy the player who plays as Willows. Because so many new/ old players will stick to her all the time to use the lighter.
Also it's not really fitting to cook foods on a small lighter.

So, It brings 2 logs and a fuel profit and in return annoys the player. I don't recommend.

The reputation will be hard to change, but she not being useless will help with that at least

I dont think so tbh, i play a lot and i rarely see people ask for others constantly to do something related to their power, such has Wigfrid which is probably the nearest case with her Helmets.

And tbh, real life logic is not a thing in this game, hell even Maxwell makes fun of it sometimes:

Opulent Pickaxe: "This must be game logic"

Walls: "Pocket-sized wall pieces. Yup"

[Chesmu]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

The reputation will be hard to change, but she not being useless will help with that at least

I dont think so tbh, i play a lot and i rarely see people ask for others constantly to do something related to their power, such has Wigfrid which is probably the nearest case with her Helmets.

And tbh, real life logic is not a thing in this game, hell even Maxwell makes fun of it sometimes:

Opulent Pickaxe: "This must be game logic"

Walls: "Pocket-sized wall pieces. Yup"

I didn't mean the real life logic in that way. I mean the cooking ability on a lighter, will make pots and pits kinda useless or equal with a lighter! Or a bit dull.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by 🐉 Chesmu ☠:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

The reputation will be hard to change, but she not being useless will help with that at least

I dont think so tbh, i play a lot and i rarely see people ask for others constantly to do something related to their power, such has Wigfrid which is probably the nearest case with her Helmets.

And tbh, real life logic is not a thing in this game, hell even Maxwell makes fun of it sometimes:

Opulent Pickaxe: "This must be game logic"

Walls: "Pocket-sized wall pieces. Yup"

I didn't mean the real life logic in that way. I mean the cooking ability on a lighter, will make pots and pits kinda useless or equal with a lighter! Or a bit dull.

Not really, Firepits are useful for light in the night and to get warm, something the Lighter cant really provide without burning something, while crockpots are the only way to make dishes, which gives far more advantages than cooked food

[El_Tres]

This is a wall of text for a non-issue.

[Just Hitting My Stride]

I won't mind the change, can't see it being broken.

Would be nice in case the others have taken all the flint around the portal when i just got in.

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

I really don't get why Klei would balance around a character for being "griefy", just go pick up some grass, twigs and now you got a torch that can destroy any wood-made base. Not like the fire-damage is what kills you most of the time when griefing.

[Luna]

might make willow a better team player
and give the lighter more use to everybody

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

Originally posted by P_Duyd:

might make willow a better team player
and give the lighter more use to everybody

Which coincidentally makes her less unique

[Luna]

Originally posted by Mean Man (Alfons):

Originally posted by P_Duyd:

might make willow a better team player
and give the lighter more use to everybody

Which coincidentally makes her less unique

true but dst is at its core a multiplayer game
each character is getting more balanced around team play
winona with the spotlights and catapults for defense
wortox with his good support combat role
willow could be a exelent light backup

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by P_Duyd:

Originally posted by Mean Man (Alfons):

Which coincidentally makes her less unique

true but dst is at its core a multiplayer game
each character is getting more balanced around team play
winona with the spotlights and catapults for defense
wortox with his good support combat role
willow could be a exelent light backup

And that's why Bernie will taunt enemies for ALL players, not just Willow alone.

You don't see other players asking for Woodies Lucy to be usable/fast with other characters, you don't see players asking for Wortox souls to be usable by others, Wickers books can also be used only by her(and Maxwell, but they do have a common book theme here, Wicker can't use codex umbra).

No, each character is NOT balanced more around team play, just around being useful instead of hinderance and Willow already provides MASSIVE team support through Bernie and lower wood consumption.

[The Very Hungry Caterpillar]

Thanks everyone for adding to the discussion!

Originally posted by Mean Man (Alfons):

I really don't get why Klei would balance around a character for being "griefy", just go pick up some grass, twigs and now you got a torch that can destroy any wood-made base. Not like the fire-damage is what kills you most of the time when griefing.

I didn't play Willow, or on public servers, back during the closed 2014/15 Beta but allegedly Willow was commonly banned due to her sanity fire downside. (Which was removed on February 23 2015.) It was probably a mix of players not knowing her fire downside, having issues managing it, or legitimate griefers trying to evade banning by exploiting her downside which caused this.

Klei probably wanted Willow in a spot where she wouldn't be banned so they went really hard on her changes, removing fire immunity being one of them. If I recall the reason was so "she has a downside which doesn't let her grief indefinitely." This was back before Reign of Giants was added which added a new downside, overheating, and since then the fire resistance nerf was no longer needed but kept in as a vestigial change from an earlier rebalance philosophy.

Its not nearly as much of a concern now since 5 years have passed and Willow isn't really a major issue but at one point in time I think it was a serious issue.

As for other mechanics that are banned Scalemail is a good example. Some servers restrict its use or outright ban it due to it lighting enemies on fire, which can quickly spread. Even if they don't some players don't like or trust players who use the scalemail and discourage its use. Its not as large a potential issue as old Willow since it requires doing stuff to D.Fly and not by spawning into a world.

Originally posted by Mean Man (Alfons):

Originally posted by P_Duyd:

might make willow a better team player
and give the lighter more use to everybody

Which coincidentally makes her less unique

Makes her less unique perhaps but as long as she is the only source of lighters I don't think this is a significant issue. Unless it can be refueled by anyone which would be bad since you would never need a Willow after it is crafted. (Similar to Bernie in his current form.)

I liked the idea someone had where Willow's lighter has infinite durability if she uses it.

Edit: Actually I agree these could make characters less unique and be a serious issue. I think that making the Moon Rock Idol/swapping characters vastly more expensive would be a better fix however.

Originally posted by El_Tres:

This is a wall of text for a non-issue.

I personally view the issue as Klei kinda lacking in artistic direction lately and it hurting the game/series. Warbucks was awful, launch Wilba wasn't so great, Wheeler's downside should never have been removed and the Winona refresh didn't fit with the lore of her character (who thought giving the former assembly line worker, with previously a strong crafting perk, a downside to make her the worst crafter was a good idea.) Thankfully they kinda reverted the Winona change but I don't think it should ever have been introduced. Another downside expanding on her character should have been added instead.

The only character that I would personally classify as good at launch was Wormwood and Wortox (I haven't played much of Wagstaff.) Wortox however cost money (I paid $22.00), was broken at launch and, to this day, still lacks basic functionality of other characters. (Can't be used offline.)

I view the issue's as things going wrong internally at Klei and the upcoming Willow refresh is yet another symptom of these issue's.

Originally posted by P_Duyd:

Originally posted by Mean Man (Alfons):

Which coincidentally makes her less unique

true but dst is at its core a multiplayer game
each character is getting more balanced around team play
winona with the spotlights and catapults for defense
wortox with his good support combat role
willow could be a exelent light backup

Its always going to be tough since light is so cheap.

Maybe once new content launches Willow's changes will be much more useful than they appear to be.

Once again thanks everyone for adding to the discussion! =)