Rebalancing skill wheel

[TemjinGold]

So with talk of rebalancing, I wanted to throw my 2 cents in:

1) There are a LOT of worthless skills that are far too high up on the ladder. A Master or GM skill should feel powerful, like a pinnacle of achievement, because it is! But the following skills are so bad, I never pick them:

Enliven (should really be Novice; Fast Reload deserves the Expert spot more)

Rover (I don't understand why the awesome Snatch is Novice while this junk is Master)

Perfect Offense / Defense (What if Archery went back to Full Range but was turned into the GM skill so it isn't OP? What if GM Defense was your whole army only takes half damage from shooters but GM Offense and GM Defense would cancel each other out?)

Reinforcements (the bonus should be a lot bigger)

Frostbite (There aren't enough cold effects for this to do much of anything it seems)

2) Some while not worthless are way too weak for where they are. One example I can think of is Perfect Warfare. The jump from WM Level 4 to WM Level 5 is not that significant. Maybe instead of just L5, this GM skill allows the machines to scale with your character?

There are tons of great skills. But the point I'm trying to make is that many of them correctly make a strong leap from Expert to Master and Master to GM but some are merely incremental, which is not how a Master or GM skill should feel. If I get someone to GM something, I want to feel like he is way better at someone who is only a Master of it.

Let me know if you guys disagree with this list or have one of your own. Perhaps by hearing why some of these should be as is, I can learn to play in a way I haven't as well.

Almost forgot: I would love to play with Fickle Magic more. Why is there only ONE hero in the whole game who can get it?

[Heart]

Thanks for the feedback TemjinGold. It's most certainly useful for us right now. Something like that Fickle Magic issue isn't a thing in our current test build. More details on this at a later date.

[Natalka_TOH]

I don't agree with OP here on many things

1) fast reload with current warfare state is indeed for novice rank
2) enliven can be quite good if it is cast on the right unit.
3) perfect offence - if a might hero faces earth magician who can buff army with +40 def this becomes your saviour
4) perfect defence - this is the chance for magic heroes to stand against might ones for more than one round.
5) reinforcements - agree but also change GM dark to about 7-10%
6)frostbite - If u want to benefit from it you have to be solely water mage - cast blizzard, circle of winter , fog shroud quite often. I think it can become quite good if u are also GM in prime. Than on your second spell u can always cast blizzards/shrouds to maximize its damage.
6)snatch/rover - snatch is not that good now when resource picking costs 1 mvt point. Stat boosters , stone of enlightment cost 0 pts. There are only a few that need points and most points are spent on resource picking. Before when this cost 2 pts the difference was significant.
Rover doubles stables bonus. As it is right now it is OP and deserves master rank. On maps with stables you get a turn and a half more per week. I think this should be entirely changed and Rover should only double movement points from rally flag/oasis/blind maiden.

[TemjinGold]

Interesting points. Just a couple of counterarguments:

1) Fast reload with someone who can do multiple ballista results in the ballista shooting SIX times in 1 round.

2) I'll concede the point on Perfect Offense because a might hero will likely get all the way up to the Master skill anyway though that is a REALLY niche use for a GM skill. However, that doesn't fly for Perfect Defense. While magic heroes can take hits with Perfect Defense, if you are wasting that many levels with the mage learning Perfect Defense, that's probably why you are getting destroyed (because your spells will suck). A mage currently with spell schools teched up instead can just destroy the opposition force with an AoE spell instead of worrying about surviving a round of attacks. Mages should focus on being mages. The idea is to build your guy so you win faster, not lose slower. Now if direct damage spells get rebalanced so that they aren't so OP, I'll take that back. Until then, I stand by my contention that this is worthless.

3) With how OP damage spells currently are, if you tech up water and focus on damage, your opponents are dead. You don't need the piddly amount Frostbite will do (which also isn't immediate like Storm Lord would be). This becomes "win more" if you are winning and worthless in the fights where you need this muscle.

I haven't noticed that resources are 1 cost to pick up now. If that's true, then Snatch indeed is now balanced. I remember the last time I played a multiplayer game, Snatch was literally doubling my movement in the early game. Rover doubling the stables is interesting. I will concede that point on the account of the stables. However, if you simply remove the bonus to the stables, then Rover goes back to being worthless for a master skill. Perhaps not double but +50% or something?

[Natalka_TOH]

1) Who cares if ballista can shoot 6 times if it does pathetic damage which doesn`t scale with hero and is good only for creeping. Sylvan is quite good why waste points in warfare.

I am talking about multiplayer experience for these below. To clarify week 4 is the endfight. Earlier mages have the upper edge for sure when armies are smaller. :

2) frostbite - if you play vs strong might hero that extra damage may be enough to win. I already ranted that damage for each effect is pathetic and they increased it. Maybe you have memories from the past.

3) Perfect offence has niche use?! Maybe soon all heroes will have access to earth magic and just casting stone skin will make your units look crappy.

4) Might heroes with high attack not those with defence will not let you live for long. AOE spells cover specific area - the might hero can position smart and boost his attack with a spell of his own and decimate you quite fast. Consider every might hero has morale, luck etc..

I am not saying that mages can`t win with Perfect Defence but this is good guarantee for survivability.

One more thing - you said I am wasting points in defence - what could I have spend them on - another magic school? I have 3 schools maxed out already + perfect defence. I am thinking your counterargument here doesn`t cut it.

[TemjinGold]

I see why we have a difference in opinion now. If you are reaching L24-26 minimum by week 4, we're playing very different starting settings.

[Natalka_TOH]

I reach level 30 middle of week 3. It is on a custom map but it is the same as if playing on heroic on the official maps.
Problem with official maps is that week 1 and 2 the XP gain is the same like on my map but then either there are no more monsters on map or they are not in increasing numbers.

PS: on my map I even decreased XP gain by 20 % because there are too many monsters :) and not enough levels(30)

[Gates]

The level cap will be removed in 1.7.

So you don't have to worry about that anymore

[Natalka_TOH]

I know that. The XP mod will stay though. The problem starts with the starting armies. They are too numerous which leads to greater creeping possibilities. To keep the hardcore spirit of the map I put strong monsters. So in turn week 1 you would be able to gain too much XP. If they fix that, I think XP gain from monsters will be(it is) ok and I will remove the mod.

[mbradtke]

I only want to point out that making perfect offense or defense available for magic hereos as it currently is would be op as hell and if there are going to be changes that make it possible for everyone to get this the skills have to be changes f.e 10% More DMG or defense and i like the early fights as they are, sure u can make it always more difficult but Problem is more about faction balance, f.e haven is op in creeping

[TemjinGold]

Originally posted by Natalka_TOH:

I reach level 30 middle of week 3. It is on a custom map but it is the same as if playing on heroic on the official maps.
Problem with official maps is that week 1 and 2 the XP gain is the same like on my map but then either there are no more monsters on map or they are not in increasing numbers.

PS: on my map I even decreased XP gain by 20 % because there are too many monsters :) and not enough levels(30)

Yep, I don't have a problem with what you're saying. I'm simply acknowledging that's why we had a difference in opinion on the skills. If your final battle is when your guy is maxed, that's a very different proposition vs if I'm doing my end fight at roughly half that level. I don't have a problem with the skills as is if that's the case since there is clearly a use case in your scenario.

I don't need every skill to be useful to me, just that every skill (especially top skills) to be useful to someone or some play style.

When I said niche use, I meant that some Master and GM skills are powerful all the time against everything. For example, Economy GM (if it works properly) is a fairly big deal and it works all the time against everything. Dungeon's Coordination also is huge and it works against everything. A few of the things I mentioned here where you argued have uses in specific instances are great in those instances but if you aren't in that matchup, they suddenly do nothing. Powerful skills can absolutely be made to only work in some cases for balance but for GM skills to do that is what I don't agree with. GM skills should be powerful and always do something.

[Warlock12]

@heart:
Besides the tweaking and balancing of the skills I would like to add another thought here.

How about allowing customized heroes in skirmish maps?
That would work as follows:
- 1 fixed skill (faction skill)
- the other 9 skills can be chosen out of the 17 other skills with varying MAXIMUM ranks depending on a) faction b) class
- of course you cant have all skills on GM or M. the skill wheel mechanics (3 GM, 3 M, 4 expert) stay the same


An example of skills to choose from for Sylvan heroes:
Fixed: Natures Revenge (GM)
Might skills:
- GM rank: defense, offense, luck
- Master rank: leadership
- expert rank: warcries, war machine
Magic skills:
- GM: earth
- M: prime, water, light, air
- E: fire, dark
Misc skills:
- GM: exploration
- M: diplomacy, paragon, economy

In comparison the options for Haven might heroes could look like this:
Fixed: Righteousness (GM)
Might skills:
- GM: leadership, defense, war machines
- M: offense, warcries
- E: luck
Magic skills:
- GM: light
- M: air
- E: prime, water, fire, earth
Misc skills:
- GM: economy
- M: diplomacy, exploration
- E: paragon

And for the orcs as a last example:
Fixed: Blood rage (GM)
Might skills:
- GM: offense, warcries, defense, war machines
- M: luck, leadership
Magic skills:
- GM: air
- M: fire
- E: light, dark, earth, water, prime
Misc skills:
- GM: exploration
- M: paragon
- E: diplomacy, economy

[Heart]

Hi Warlock12 this is a fantastic list you've provided And will certainly be used in reference with some up coming changes we're talking about. If others would like to take a shot at 'creating' classes like Warlock12 has done it will most certainly not be overlooked! (create a class with no constraints to what skills could potentially populate the skill wheel)

[Gates]

Originally posted by Warlock12:

@heart:

And for the orcs as a last example:
Fixed: Blood rage (GM)
Might skills:
- GM: offense, warcries, defense, war machines
- M: luck, leadership
Magic skills:
- GM: air
- M: fire
- E: light, dark, earth, water, prime
Misc skills:
- GM: exploration
- M: paragon
- E: diplomacy, economy

This look pretty great, but personally I'd switch the defense and leadership. Stronghold has always been more attack/high morale than defense, so I think getting GM Defense doesn't make that much sense. Though there can always be a hero who has it ofcourse.

I'd also switch ''fire'' and ''earth'' because Stronghold always has been Father Sky and Mother Earth.

[TemjinGold]

I'd actually switch defense for stronghold down to expert. They've always penalized for wait or defending, so I think master doesn't even fit.

[mbradtke]

I dont know... On one side i see how wheels based of the factions strenght and lore are a good idea, on the other side i See some major balance conflicts with it, no GM economy for everyone? Unfair, economy is a very important skill, sure if u keep that all factions in hero tavern thing there is a workaround but still... Not optimal.

However it would be an improvement, but if u lock some trees to certain factions, balance has to be really good so Every factions GM and master skills are equal in strengh and of course the factions itself, i also still like the idea to unlock everything for everyone beside racial would also have replay value but would cause some trouble for AI how to choose skills some thing it still cant, not even pick arcane knowledge AS a mage...