Are random maps on heroic impossible?

[lucibuis]

So I tried another one. If I set AI on heroic, difficulty on heroic and neutrals crushing, I don't think there is any way to win. Did someone win with these settings?

By week 3-4 I have 1 dwelling and one sawmill, only core units, then the AI comes with an army with Elites...

[mbradtke]

week 3 and 4 and only core Units and 1 dweling? lol well, yes of Course u can win against the AI even on hardest Settings, u just have to be careful what u do and what u fight, by week 2 u should have most core Buildings, even on heroic, i usually dont Play on These Settings since it is just time consuming but i once had

[lucibuis]

i can't do anyhting more because I set the neutrals as "crushing", it's literally impossible to beat them until, as sylvan, i get the druid with the thorns and the spells blizzard or fog shroud

[Windfarer]

Haven can manage almost losssless fights on Heroic neutral and even VS 4+ Heroic AIs on the same team. Necropolis has more losses early on, but also manageable as OP skeleton stack kicks in in after few weeks. However, I couldn't figure out a way to do it with Sylvan, it'd glad if someone could show how.

Haven is still my favorite race and here is my build order:
Hero: Alesia - To get a healing sister rightaway with AoE healing. Don't upgrade the heal twice skill or the AoE healing would be lost.

Run around to pick resources on the first 1-2 turns, while rushing to Legionnaires and fight in a lock down defensive position (wolf on the side, legionaires front, crossbow/marksmen on the back). Wolves and Legionnaires always use defense.

Focus on upgrading defense early on. It matters a lot. Here's what I've found:
70% Damage Reduction: 30 Excess DEF points (30x2.5) ex. 31 DEF vs 1 ATK
50% Damage Reduction: 20 Excess DEF points (20x2.5) ex. 21 DEF vs 1 ATK

Couple that with Legionnaire's ability, which is to reduced incoming damage to 25%, your units barely take any damage. If you did lose some units, you can even recover them with heal since it's your starting spell.

Skills I get very early:

Defense Skill:
Novice +2
Defensive Stance +6 (while idle)
Expert +2
Evasion +6 (vs range)
(may skip expert + evasion if there are not many ranged stacks around)

Try to find/produce as many marksmen as possible and try not to lose them.

Once you get Storm Arrow (air tier 1) + Celestial Armor (light tier 2), you'd be invincible. Mage heroes can add like +50 ATK to your range units. With Paragon's mastery skill, you can cast any spell you have at least on Novice as Master. Try to find items that add base damage to range creatures to deal even more damage.

On my main hero, I only use Marksmen, Priests, Legionnairs, and Angels, so that I can manage lossless fights. The rest of the army can go to another hero to defend the castle, etc.

Also try to rush for Recruiter's Outpost (town level 15 requirement) as soon as possible, as it will increase core dwelling substantially!

[Siddha]

Some good info there - would be worth considering writing a short guide

[lucibuis]

Originally posted by Wind:

Haven can manage almost losssless fights on Heroic neutral and even VS 4+ Heroic AIs on the same team. Necropolis has more losses early on, but also manageable as OP skeleton stack kicks in in after few weeks. However, I couldn't figure out a way to do it with Sylvan, it'd glad if someone could show how.

Haven is still my favorite race and here is my build order:
Hero: Alesia - To get a healing sister rightaway with AoE healing. Don't upgrade the heal twice skill or the AoE healing would be lost.

Run around to pick resources on the first 1-2 turns, while rushing to Legionnaires and fight in a lock down defensive position (wolf on the side, legionaires front, crossbow/marksmen on the back). Wolves and Legionnaires always use defense.

Focus on upgrading defense early on. It matters a lot. Here's what I've found:
70% Damage Reduction: 30 Excess DEF points (30x2.5) ex. 31 DEF vs 1 ATK
50% Damage Reduction: 20 Excess DEF points (20x2.5) ex. 21 DEF vs 1 ATK

Couple that with Legionnaire's ability, which is to reduced incoming damage to 25%, your units barely take any damage. If you did lose some units, you can even recover them with heal since it's your starting spell.

Skills I get very early:

Defense Skill:
Novice +2
Defensive Stance +6 (while idle)
Expert +2
Evasion +6 (vs range)
(may skip expert + evasion if there are not many ranged stacks around)

Try to find/produce as many marksmen as possible and try not to lose them.

Once you get storm arrow (air tier 1) + divine shield (light tier 2), you'd be invincible. Mage heroes can add like +50 ATK to your range units. With Paragon's mastery skill, you can cast any spell you have at least on Novice as Master. Try to find items that add base damage to range creatures to deal even more damage.

On my main hero, I only use Marksmen, Priests, Legionnairs, and Angels, so that I can manage lossless fights. The rest of the army can go to another hero to defend the castle, etc.

that sounds good but also difficult.

I tried another random map with Sylvan, 8 Hard AIs, crushing neutrals and heroic difficulty, I lasted longer and was able to get several resources and dwellings, however when I defeated a powerful neutral stack I went into AI territory and they chased me down with a strong army and killed me... should I just wait for them to kill the neutrals separating the areas so that they will be weakened? I lost so many units killing neutrals

[lucibuis]

tried 2 more, they had me starting in the dungeons where many paths are blocked... i was slaughtered... am I so bad????

I will have to try easier settings, maybe crushing neutrals is too hard? How can the AI defeat those?

[Windfarer]

So you are going to keep trying with the Sylvan faction right? I'll experiment too when I have time.

[Windfarer]

Oh! I just realized that the "crushing" neutral on random map generator is another difficulty setting. On pre-made maps, we can't adjust that so I usually go for
1. Heroic AI Difficulty on the left player panel and
2. Heroic Difficulty on lower right corner (applies to the least starting resources, highest neutral strength + highest neutral growth)

With that setting on the first week, if we encounter a lone stack of Gnolls guarding an ore pit / Sawmill, it'd be a stack of 106.

However, if we add the third variable:
3. Modify the "Strength of Neutral Army" to "Crushing" on random map generator

You'd be dealing with a stack of 213 Gnolls on the first week (340 on second):
https://gyazo.com/08b41e1da8058f347a8d4335288bfbd2

I'd get wrecked or lose too many units trying to beat that, even with Haven.

[Windfarer]

OK I managed to progressed to week 2 month 2 and beat 2 heroic AIs that attacked me. This is "crushing" neutral strength random map string: A4NNC&#2 playing vs 3 heroic AIs on the same team, heroic diffiulty.

I basically used the Haven strategy I posted above, but it goes a lot slower with "crushing" neutral strength. If you get something like a lone stack of 213 gnolls guarding the ore pit / sawmill, better restart.

Here's a list of fights I had so you get an idea how slow it goes on curshing:
W1D6 - 21 Legionnaires, 40 Crossbowmen, 10 Wolves
- Attack ore mine: lost 4 Legionnaires and 4 Wolves.
- Attack sawmill: lost 15 Legionnaires and 6 Wolves.
W2D6 - Attack a Haven Core Dwelling: lost 5 Legionnaires and 9 Wolves.
W3D3 - Attack another Haven Core Dwelling: lossless, due to Blizzard exploits.
W3D5 - Attack another sawmill: lost 3 Legionnaires and 5 Wolves
W3D6 - Attack a neutral guarding chest: lost 4 Legionnaires and 4 Wolves
W3D7 - Attack an observatory: lost 4 Legionnaires and 5 Wolves.

"Crushing" neutral really made lossless play impossible. The most important unit is crossbowmen/marksmen. It does not matter if I lose anything other units, as 99% of damage comes from range.

Exploits I did rely on sometimes:
1. "Storm Arrow" is vital for damage dealing. I have to reload the game and rebuild Mage Guild Level 1 with different secondary element, until I get it.
2. It was lucky that I got Blizzard. If the neutrals are melee stacks, cast Blizzard over them and they will never leave the Blizzard area until it wears off. There are many units that are immune to spells/movement reduction though.

https://youtu.be/i3ZvKMl44Mg

The first Heroic AI (Academy) attacks on week 4 day 5. In order to survive, I have to stay inside the castle with Fortification Level 3 (couldn't survive on level 2). The first AI that attacked me was Academy and the magic damage went through my strategy that relies on high defense. I had 190 Marksmen by that time, and 40 got killed by a hero's spell.

https://youtu.be/LBY8h3UvcHU

The second Heroic AI (Sylvan) attacks on week 5 day 4. It was a lot easier to defend the castle and I did not lose any marksmen this time.

The third Heroic AI hasn't arrived yet, but I'm feeling very confident right now. Usually, if you beat the first wave, you pretty much win the game. They'd never catch up. I'm not sure about "crushing" neutral strength though.... that is to be seen.

[Windfarer]

https://youtu.be/OOqsqAv1LtA

The third Heroic AI (Academy) arrives on week 5 day 6. It's an easy beating as my Celestial Armor starts to absorb more and more damage. I'll focus on any skills / items / shrines that give bonuses to my might / magic stats as it would buff my base damage / Storm Arrow damage and Divine Shield damage absorption. On week 6 day 3 the AIs stop sending troops so I can venture forth.

My Celestial Armor currently absorbs 362 damage on a 3x3 tile, while Storm Arrow increases attack by 53 on 4x4 tile. It'd be a cakewalk from now.

[lucibuis]

wow thanks Wind for the detailed description. It seems to be that is widely dependent on the initial set up (what neutrals defend what, whay spells do you get as Tier 1) and for Heaven it's easier because they get the Marksman as Core Unit, their core units are probably the best in the game.

I'm trying Sylvan with these settings:

Neutrals: strong
AI: Hard
Difficulty: Hard

and it's difficult, I'm still alive but one AI Academy has bigger armies, I might be able to win though, if they attack me in my city. Another AI is nearby as well but thankfully did show up with huge armies yet.

I think it's a bit like playing chess, every move and every loss counts

[Windfarer]

What strategy do you use?

I've been experimenting with Sylvan on crushing neutral / heroic ai & difficulty. I choose Agathin for early +1 base range damage and for "blizzard" as a starting spell.

https://youtu.be/EooFCI_Uq1U
Battle on week 1 (ore pit)

With +2 levels, I go for "Homeland" skill for +8 might in control area as governer, and either "Archery" for another +3 might or -20% water spell or Warfare Novice... not sure.

https://youtu.be/sSx3DWmXCTc
Battle on week 2 (lumber mill)

[Siddha]

The impression I get from the battle is that the monster AI is awful; they are unable to move out of the blizzard area even when they are at the edge and its their move.
I just bought the game in the sale, so it's disappointing to see this

[lucibuis]

Originally posted by Siddha:

The impression I get from the battle is that the monster AI is awful; they are unable to move out of the blizzard area even when they are at the edge and its their move.
I just bought the game in the sale, so it's disappointing to see this

yes blizzard, fire wall and poison cloud, and the druid ability thorn block units, I was trying to reduce their area of effects. But even with that spell, it's very hard as you can see. He was able to win thanks to the hero skill and the fact that he had met legionnaires. That strategy won't work against ranged creatures, or fast creatures that occupy 4 grid spaces in small maps.

Thanks wind, that is interesting, I never thought of using blizzard not initially but after the enemy enters in full range. I was starting with random hero and never reload if I don't get spells or enemies I want, so I guess it's hit and miss.

For my current game, for the first battles I used dryads and sprites with brute force so I lost some. Now with blizzard and druids it's easier but I'm way behind the AI

[mbradtke]

also thought u meant Standard heroic Settings.... yes rnd maps hightest difficult is very insane... btw there are some "fixes" available to the AI Bugs in aoe effects, can use it if u want it makes fights with mages less painful to watch http://www.hommdb.com/mods/heroes7/h7-improved/