Bard songs

[Kissa Ninja]

I have a Bard (jesker)
How do you change bard songs?
Someone said right clicking "bard song" changes it but it wont open any selection screen.
And something about innate abilities?

[Tasi]

Only non-kited bards get these songs.
Having kited bard (Blade, Jester, Skald) means replacing access to these bard songs (The Ballad of Three Heroes, The Tale of Curran Strongheart,Tymora's Melody,The Song of Kaudies,The Siren's Yearning,The War Chant of Sith) with some other advantage. This means that non-kited bard are considered significantly more useful then kits.

[Kissa Ninja]

Originally posted by Tasi:

Only non-kited bards get these songs.
Having kited bard (Blade, Jester, Skald) means replacing access to these bard songs (The Ballad of Three Heroes, The Tale of Curran Strongheart,Tymora's Melody,The Song of Kaudies,The Siren's Yearning,The War Chant of Sith) with some other advantage. This means that non-kited bard are considered significantly more useful then kits.

Even though I did the early quest with the water lady? I remember asking for an reward being her song she taught my bard. Ty for reply anyways

[Dumah]

Originally posted by Tasi:

This means that non-kited bard are considered significantly more useful then kits.

- bards are more of a "fun" class in all D&D based rpg's, their actual usefullness is rather questionable. And blade is actually rather potent damage dealer actually, at least in the begining of the game.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Dumah:

- bards are more of a "fun" class in all D&D based rpg's, their actual usefullness is rather questionable. And blade is actually rather potent damage dealer actually, at least in the begining of the game.

I have soloed BG trilogy with Blade kit and I love this kit. On the other hand in Icewind Dale (especially higher difficulties) I value non-kited bards as one of the most important part of my groups. The War Chant of Sith is hard to pass. Questionable usefulness? I do not think so:)

Originally posted by Kissa Ninja:

Even though I did the early quest with the water lady? I remember asking for an reward being her song she taught my bard.

Actually I did not know about that song from Elisia... I have to try it myself. What it does?

[Dumah]

Originally posted by Tasi:

I have soloed BG trilogy with Blade kit and I love this kit. On the other hand in Icewind Dale (especially higher difficulties) I value non-kited bards as one of the most important part of my groups. The War Chant of Sith is hard to pass. Questionable usefulness? I do not think so:)

- you can stick a real mage or a fighter instead of a bard thou. I did not said that bards are "useless" i said that they are of "questionable use" in other words - here are much better picks than non-mage-non-fighter-non-thief. ;) Obvioulsy in the end it boils down to a players preference but bards are definetelly not a power gaming choice.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Dumah:

- you can stick a real mage or a fighter instead of a bard thou

Icewind Dale is not Baldur’s Gate. Bards (non-kited) have very useful songs:

• 1st lvl The Ballad of Three Heroes: All allies within 30 ft. gain +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1 to all their Saving Throws
  
• 3rd lvl The Tale of Curran Strongheart: All allies within 30 ft. gain immunity to fear effects for as long as the song lasts, and any fear effects currently on them are removed
  
• 5th lvl Tymora's Melody: All allies within 30 ft. gain +1 to luck, +3 to Saving Throws, +10 to lore, and a +10% bonus to all of their thieving skills
  
• 7th lvl The Song of Kaudies: All allies within 30 ft. have a 50% chance to shrug off the effects of spells such as Silence, Shout, Great Shout, Command, Greater Command, or any other sound-based attack
  
• 9th lvl The Siren's Yearning: All enemies within 30 ft. must save vs. Spell or become enthralled, unable to take action until 1 round passes or they take damage
  
• 11th lvl The War Chant of Sith: All allies within 30 ft. gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class, +10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage, and the ability to regenerate 2 Hit Points per round

Bards do not work as "non-mage-non-fighter-non-thief". They work as: very convenient buffers/dispel enemy spell/enemy control/healers. Just set AI to constantly sing and you are done. Number of healed HP is usually good enough to skip healing spells completely and prepare with your clerics just another buffing spells. I usually memorize with bards buffing/summoning spells (but bards in IWD would be amazing even without spells). I have to admit I do not play low difficulty so it might be the case that there bards are not needed and you would rather take another damage dealer... On high difficulty bards are just amazing and I would recommend it to everybody.

Originally posted by Dumah:

I did not said that bards are "useless" i said that they are of "questionable use" in other words - here are much better picks than non-mage-non-fighter-non-thief. ;) Obvioulsy in the end it boils down to a players preference but bards are definetelly not a power gaming choice.

I strongly disagree:)

[Dumah]

Originally posted by Tasi:

They work as: very convenient buffers/dispel enemy spell/enemy control/healers.

- mage or a fighter would still be a better choice. Bards are subpar if we talk about power gaming. I have nothing against taking a bard in team in both BG and IDW but here are more powerfull picks outhere. If you having fun with a bard than its ok. Its OK to be bard. =)

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Dumah:

Originally posted by Tasi:

They work as: very convenient buffers/dispel enemy spell/enemy control/healers.

- mage or a fighter would still be a better choice. Bards are subpar if we talk about power gaming. I have nothing against taking a bard in team in both BG and IDW but here are more powerfull picks outhere. If you having fun with a bard than its ok. Its OK to be bard. =)

Just from curiosity: what is that "power gaming" team composition of yours? I mean for full walkthrough (including Heart of Winter) for these 2 cases:

1. insane difficulty
   
2. Heart of Fury difficulty

(new characters, e.g. team has to start on 1st level, no items, no levels)

And more importantly: Have you finished the game by yourself with these setting?
I have to admit I am eager to read your "power gaming" suggestions:)

[Dumah]

Im not a "power gamer" if you asking that. Currently im playing on insane with a team of blackguard, barbarian, darkmoon monk, priest of talost, assassin and necromancer. And HoW is on completelly different level of dificulty as it alters gameplay too much and requires completelly different aproach.

As for a power gaming in general if we talk about original IWD the answer is simple - google it. Really, the game is almost 20 years old im a bit of rusty now. As far as i remember general concensus was to never take pure classess, always take 2 specialist mages, 2 fighters, evil fighter/cleric with matching allignement to allignements of your fighters and fighter/thief. Here were also all druid cheese etc etc etc. Long story short - bard is a subpar choice if you consider alternatives. I dont get why you even arguing.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Dumah:

As for a power gaming in general if we talk about original IWD the answer is simple - google it.

Thanks but I have finished the game with these settings. You can follow your own advice and check that bard's "questionable usefulness" of yours. It was not me who said:

• "power gaming choice"
  
• "more powerful picks"
  
• "actual usefulness is rather questionable "

I have not mentioned any "power gaming" myself. It was always you. I am politely asking you to explain what these "powerful picks" means. If you could give me that suggestion of more powerful picks for Heart of Winter that would be amazing. I would be able to see what do you mean with it. I have to admit I doubt that what you are saying is true. My suspicions are: you have not played with bard after he received these songs (initially the bards did not have them). I am not blaming you. I am just explaining why I am asking you this question.

Originally posted by Dumah:

Im not a "power gamer" if you asking that. Currently im playing on insane with a team of blackguard, barbarian, darkmoon monk, priest of talost, assassin and necromancer. And HoW is on completelly different level of dificulty as it alters gameplay too much and requires completelly different aproach.

Maybe you have missed mine:

Originally posted by Tasi:

I have to admit I do not play low difficulty so it might be the case that there bards are not needed and you would rather take another damage dealer... On high difficulty bards are just amazing and I would recommend it to everybody.

Originally posted by Dumah:

As far as i remember general concensus was to never take pure classess

You remember wrongly (or before HoW expansion).

Originally posted by Dumah:

always take 2 specialist mages

I disagree.

Originally posted by Dumah:

2 fighters

That could work for me.

Originally posted by Dumah:

evil fighter/cleric with matching allignement to allignements of your fighters and fighter/thief

Matching alignment with clerics is good suggestion. I disagree with evil alignment.

Originally posted by Dumah:

Here were also all druid cheese etc etc etc. Long story short - bard is a subpar choice if you consider alternatives.

Could you please tell me what is that better alternative if bard is "subpar"? I am asking about full walkthrough including Heart of Winter (insane or Heart of Fury).

Originally posted by Dumah:

I dont get why you even arguing.

Ohh... I am pretty sure it was you who started with:

Originally posted by Dumah:

bards are more of a "fun" class in all D&D based rpg's, their actual usefullness is rather questionable. And blade is actually rather potent damage dealer actually, at least in the begining of the game.

I only replied with:

Originally posted by Tasi:

I value non-kited bards as one of the most important part of my groups. The War Chant of Sith is hard to pass. Questionable usefulness? I do not think so:)

so I have not started arguing with you. I only said I do not agree. You have continued with:

Originally posted by Dumah:

you can stick a real mage or a fighter instead of a bard thou. I did not said that bards are "useless" i said that they are of "questionable use" in other words - here are much better picks than non-mage-non-fighter-non-thief. ;) Obvioulsy in the end it boils down to a players preference but bards are definetelly not a power gaming choice.

So I was speaking about myself ("I value bard"; "I include bard in group", "I would recommend") while you were arguing and judging with "questionable usefulness" and "power gaming" picks. Not sure why you are personally attacking me with blame of "arguing" while it is you, not me. I am only asking you to explain your interesting judgment of bard's usefulness.

[Dumah]

You mad bro. All i did was to say that bard is a subpar choice in comparison with alternatives. And it is a subpar choice. I dont get why you are so mad about it. Want to play with a bard? Play with it, no one stopping you and you can easily beat the game with a bard in group.

[Damn_Monkey]

Originally posted by Dumah:

You mad bro. All i did was to say that bard is a subpar choice in comparison with alternatives. And it is a subpar choice. I dont get why you are so mad about it. Want to play with a bard? Play with it, no one stopping you and you can easily beat the game with a bard in group.:lunar2019deadpanpig:

Non power gamer lecturing on what is or isn't power gaming? And how do you define sub par?

Bards are quite effective at what they do. Want someone who can buff every other aspect of every team member? Get a bard. Their songs offer unique options that can only come from a bard. Not to mention the quests and game lore that is bard only. If your concept of "power gaming" includes being able to do it all, then having a bard in the group is nothing but a boon.

There is nothing sub par about them if you know what you're doing.

[mike_hanna211]

Bards are questionable; War Chant of the Sith is gained at level 11. By that level, monsters are capable of massive damage. The only useful effect from that song are the resistances, which is not much (1hp of damage resisted per 10hp).

You're better off using a Priest or Mage to control or nuke them instead of relying on a song which incapacitates a party member, IMO.

The cool thing about this game though is almost every party composition can win it.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

Bards are questionable

I do not agree:)

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

War Chant of the Sith is gained at level 11. By that level, monsters are capable of massive damage.

I guess we are lucky damage reduction is in percentages so higher damage = more it helps us, right?:)
10% from 10 damage is 1 saved HP
10% from 20 damage are 2 saved HP
The effect is even stronger for higher difficulties since higher difficulty >> higher damage enemies do.
Moreover because of increased difficulty enemies will hit you more frequently (HoF = more ApR + better THAC0).

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

The only useful effect from that song are the resistances

Definitely not the only one. I consider the healing very convenient. I usually go and make a tea and do not care about casting healing spells or constantly sleep till full heal. On the other hand I do agree that it is probable the most impactful effect.

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

which is not much (1hp of damage resisted per 10hp).

More damage reduction you have - more it helps you. Take a look at following numbers (enemy does 10 damage and you have 100 HP):

• 0% DR (damage reduction) >> 10 hits to kill you
  
• 10% DR >> 11.1 hits (11.1% improvement)
  
• 20% DR >> 12.5 hits (12.5% improvement)
  
• 30% DR >> 14.3 hits (14.3% improvement)
  
• 40% DR >> 16.7 hits (16.7% improvement)
  
• 50% DR >> 20 hits (20% improvement)
  
• 60% DR >> 25 hits (25% improvement)
  
• 70% DR >> 33.3 hits (33.3% improvement)
  
• 80% DR >> 50 hits (50% improvement)
  
• 90% DR >> 100 hits (100% improvement)
  
• 100% DR >> enemy cannot kill you

What does it mean? You should try to stack damage reduction from different sources (class, items, effects). In this way you can get significant improvement of your survivability. The bard song effect is very unique since it is one of few options you have in order to use this advantage.

Yes, there are also other ways how to mitigate damage, e.g.:

• Stoneskin – helps only against limited number of attacks which means: less effective against lots of enemies + it loses effectiveness for higher difficulties (more ApR + enemies survives longer = more attacks they will make)
  
• Protection From Magical Weapons - helps only for limited time which means it loses effectiveness for higher difficulties (enemies survives longer)

Damage reduction is not better - it is complementary. It is reliable and you can (at least some effects like the bard song) have it all the time.
I believe damage reduction is one of the strongest effect in the game. I would hardly call it “not much”…

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

You're better off using a Priest or Mage to control or nuke them instead of relying on a song which incapacitates a party member, IMO.

It is situational and also it is heavily affected by difficulty.
More HP enemies have + higher Saves enemies have >> less effective to nuke them
Higher Saves enemies have >> spell to control them are less reliable
Moreover, if you have one mage with crowd control spell then getting another mage with crowd control spell does not help you that much – does it?

I am not saying bard is better than mage (nor I am saying that bard is worse than mage). Full party of mages is in my perspective not that effective as mixed party (similarly as full party of fighters or full party of bards). Bard brings to party some very interesting effects which other party members can heavily benefit from. Simplistic judgement like “Bards are questionable” is (at least for me) hilarious.

[mike_hanna211]

Originally posted by Tasi:

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

Bards are questionable

I do not agree:)

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

War Chant of the Sith is gained at level 11. By that level, monsters are capable of massive damage.

I guess we are lucky damage reduction is in percentages so higher damage = more it helps us, right?:)
10% from 10 damage is 1 saved HP
10% from 20 damage are 2 saved HP
The effect is even stronger for higher difficulties since higher difficulty >> higher damage enemies do.
Moreover because of increased difficulty enemies will hit you more frequently (HoF = more ApR + better THAC0).

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

The only useful effect from that song are the resistances

Definitely not the only one. I consider the healing very convenient. I usually go and make a tea and do not care about casting healing spells or constantly sleep till full heal. On the other hand I do agree that it is probable the most impactful effect.

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

which is not much (1hp of damage resisted per 10hp).

More damage reduction you have - more it helps you. Take a look at following numbers (enemy does 10 damage and you have 100 HP):

• 0% DR (damage reduction) >> 10 hits to kill you
  
• 10% DR >> 11.1 hits (11.1% improvement)
  
• 20% DR >> 12.5 hits (12.5% improvement)
  
• 30% DR >> 14.3 hits (14.3% improvement)
  
• 40% DR >> 16.7 hits (16.7% improvement)
  
• 50% DR >> 20 hits (20% improvement)
  
• 60% DR >> 25 hits (25% improvement)
  
• 70% DR >> 33.3 hits (33.3% improvement)
  
• 80% DR >> 50 hits (50% improvement)
  
• 90% DR >> 100 hits (100% improvement)
  
• 100% DR >> enemy cannot kill you

What does it mean? You should try to stack damage reduction from different sources (class, items, effects). In this way you can get significant improvement of your survivability. The bard song effect is very unique since it is one of few options you have in order to use this advantage.

Yes, there are also other ways how to mitigate damage, e.g.:

• Stoneskin – helps only against limited number of attacks which means: less effective against lots of enemies + it loses effectiveness for higher difficulties (more ApR + enemies survives longer = more attacks they will make)
  
• Protection From Magical Weapons - helps only for limited time which means it loses effectiveness for higher difficulties (enemies survives longer)

Damage reduction is not better - it is complementary. It is reliable and you can (at least some effects like the bard song) have it all the time.
I believe damage reduction is one of the strongest effect in the game. I would hardly call it “not much”…

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

You're better off using a Priest or Mage to control or nuke them instead of relying on a song which incapacitates a party member, IMO.

It is situational and also it is heavily affected by difficulty.
More HP enemies have + higher Saves enemies have >> less effective to nuke them
Higher Saves enemies have >> spell to control them are less reliable
Moreover, if you have one mage with crowd control spell then getting another mage with crowd control spell does not help you that much – does it?

I am not saying bard is better than mage (nor I am saying that bard is worse than mage). Full party of mages is in my perspective not that effective as mixed party (similarly as full party of fighters or full party of bards). Bard brings to party some very interesting effects which other party members can heavily benefit from. Simplistic judgement like “Bards are questionable” is (at least for me) hilarious.

I also wouldn't say Bards are totally useless. Considering the other class options, you're better off taking a Mage or Priest. Heck, even a Paladin, or one the class kits, would be a better pick.

Damage Resistance, while useful, is much better when you don't have to even use it, or worry about having it or not. Your first and foremost concern is eliminating enemies that are going to cause your harm. If you're concerned more about defense than offense, the enemies which outnumber you almost always, will whittle you down. Eliminating each threat piece meal is the goal. And damage resistance serves little in that regard.

Priests to buff your party to exceptional strength, increase saving throws, and even adding situational resistances (i.e. Death Ward, Negative Plane Protection, etc.) is much better than a +2 AC and 10% damage resistance.

Having a Mage throwing Greater Malison and Lower Resistance will allow for more damage and effects to land when throwing the AoE spells. Better yet 2 Mages, one focused on damage and control AoE, and the other debuffing and summons. And your summons will benefit from Priest buffs!

Unless you're focused on not spending money on identifying items and a measly defense bonus (again which doesn't mean much against the monsters you're encountering at level 11+), a party slot is better used for a more offensive or supportive class.

Don't mis-understand me; I'm not saying your wrong or I'm right. We just have differing opinions on this class' usefulness.

End of the story, have fun! Spoiler alert... my current party has a Bard in it!