Submarine Sonar

[CombatWomble]

Just want to have a discusion about the effectivness of sub sonar as it works in the game currently.

The short is i think they under perform by a wide margin, these boats should be able to EASILY track surface targets while in a hunting posture. ie at 4 knots they should hear surface vessels maybe out past 100 miles.

Some accounts from the falklands sugest royal navy boats could do this in the eighties so now it should be no problem.

Please chime in guys, but keep it civil :D

[Dimitris]

You are familiar with CZs, the dead zones between them, as well as the blind gap between the first CZ and the edge of direct path, correct?

[Dimitris]

Also I assume you have read on the manual, p. 132, this section: "Understanding depth bands and the thermal layer".

( A printer-friendly copy of the v1.00 manual is available here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3418599 )

[CombatWomble]

Ive read the manual yes, but under no circumstances do i ever get detection ranges as far out as i would expect.

[Cathrynn]

I've read the manual but I'm also having trouble detecting ships with sub sonar out past the first very thin green line, even ships that are actively pinging in depths greater than 600ft. I've never detected anything in a Convergence Zone so does anyone know of any tutorial vids on this subject please, or could give some advice/suggestions for detecting ships in the CZs?

[Dimitris]

Have a look at this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNQmDfRMWEM&list=PLgRuKky0mojb3THVzt27NXtbe63tDEiwN

[Cathrynn]

Thanks Dimitris, that's brilliant, especially Ep 20 Part 3, the business!

Right then. I'm off to send some tonnage to the bottom of Davy Jones' Locker ! :)

[CombatWomble]

Ok, have a look at Malvinas 1982, The Pincer scenario from one of the community packs. Load this up in the scenario editor and force some intercepts on the Argintine Tf's. I get detection ranges no further out then 12nm. Seems very short

Considering what we now know of nato sub activities in the Barents sea throughout the cold war the subs in CMANO are definitely underperforming.

[Dimitris]

Please post a save of the situation you are describing. I am 99% certain that the sonar model is working exactly as designed (and that the design corresponds to RL factors as much as possible), but there is always the chance we missed something.

Considering what we now know of nato sub activities in the Barents sea throughout the cold war the subs in CMANO are definitely underperforming.

I'd be real careful with making such sweeping statements. Some of the guys who helped us build the sonar model and tested it do this thing for real.

[CombatWomble]

Then if everything is working as it should the question becomes how were tracks made under these conditions irl? And is there a tool/tools that can help us achieve better results. (if only some nav plot tools)
We know trackshappened often could be considered "routine" for want of a better expression.
And yes, i have a save, ill send it to you with a note.

[Dimitris]

Then if everything is working as it should the question becomes how were tracks made under these conditions irl?

If you are going to compare a RL detection with a sim detection, first you have to be certain that the conditions are exactly identical. Are you certain this is the case?

IRL what was the sub location? Depth? Course? Speed? What was the local weather? Was the sub over, under or inside the thermal layer? How "strong" was the thermal layer? Was the sub in the deep sound channel? Was it shallow? What was the location, course & speed of every single ship in the formation that the sub detected?

In the simulated scenario, what was the sub depth? Course? Speed? What was the local weather? Was the sub over, under or inside the thermal layer? How "strong" was the thermal layer? Was the sub in the deep sound channel? Was it shallow? What was the location, course & speed of every single ship in the formation that the sub detected?

There are a million factors. That's why I am asking for a save. The save file tells (almost) everything.

And is there a tool/tools that can help us achieve better results. (if only some nav plot tools)

Nav plots do not magically boost your sonar sensitivity.

We know trackshappened often could be considered "routine" for want of a better expression.

See the videos I linked to. Under the right conditions yes, you can get detections out to multiple CZs. Under less-then-ideal conditions the range can drop to really, really low levels. Talk to the guys who do this for real. They'll tell you exactly the same.

And yes, i have a save, ill send it to you with a note.

Waiting.

[Dimitris]

I'll ask again, just to double check: You are aware of the blind gap between direct-path and the first CZ, as well as the dead zones between CZs, right?

[CombatWomble]

Im familiar with them being there as to thier exact cause/mechanic im woefully under educated :D but im guessing this is where it gets VERY technical (convergence zones)

[Coiler12]

Originally posted by CombatWomble:

Ok, have a look at Malvinas 1982, The Pincer scenario from one of the community packs. Load this up in the scenario editor and force some intercepts on the Argintine Tf's. I get detection ranges no further out then 12nm. Seems very short

Considering what we now know of nato sub activities in the Barents sea throughout the cold war the subs in CMANO are definitely underperforming.

The waters around the Falklands are, for the most part, very shallow (comparatively speaking). If you hover the cursor, you'll frequently find "No CZs" on the display. This means you can't take advantage of CZs even if the sonar is powerful enough to cover them.

While the Barents Sea isn't the deepest either, it has convergence zones in it (hover the cursor and sea for yourself).

[Stu-T-Rotherham]

This is an old post but I agree with the original poster. The SONAR detection ranges I see in this game from submarines compare poorly to the ranges from Harpoon and other similar games (688, Cold Waters etc).

Many times with the older Soviet submarines it's more efficient to use the periscope to detect surface units than the SONAR.

Is there any way to boost the detection capabilities of subarines within the game?
(for me personally, can I alter a variable for example to increase the effectiveness of submarine SONAR only?)

[Dimitris]

Hello,

Please post a (link to a) save file of a situation where you think you are getting unrealistic sonar detection ranges, so we can take a look.

Thanks.