How to conduct Recon (specifically IMINT)

[LineOfDeparture]

Cheers everyone,

So I finally decided to buy this game! It has been to long.

I am toying around with the mechanics in the Brass Drum scenario. Currently, I am stuck at getting recon to work, more specifically IMINT. I experiment with different COAs against the Char bahar Airport.

1.) I equip one F-18 with a SHARP recon Pod. This pod includes a radar, But I can't turn it on. It doesn't show in the "sensors" display for the F-18. Any suggestion on the proper use?

2.) I have to get insanely close for IMINT (5 NM for the SHARP pod), I know this is trivial information, but how come the F-35 has a on board sensor that has 100 NM range (EOTS [IRST])? This seems to make recon F-18s redundant. It actually manages to spot Orions on the Char bahar TARMAC way out at sea, at about 63 NMs.

3.) What is the real life SOP for Recon Pods? Fly over? pass by? How close do I really get? Am I missing something? I could extend the question to GBUs. Many Aircraft are equiped with such weapons, and it seems they are massively unsuited for this scenario. But the fact that the scenario editor has them in the scen in such numbers makes me wonder: there must be a way to get closer?

4.) In short: How to gather intel on a well/solidly defendet Airfield, beyond using SIGINT?

Thanks to anyone who bothers helping me in that regard.

Cheers,

A

[Qwerty 2316]

I'm not really informed enough to answer most of your questions, however, i've found GBUs to be quite valuable, especially very early and very late game.

For the former, decent SEAD can knock out the less fortified defences you find guarding the first two airbases. The bombs are a bit more efficient than lobbing a bunch of TACTOMs. As for the latter, once you knock out the best of the enemy defences, its pretty easy to lob some bombs and not be shot at, especially if you stay high (again assuming long range sams are dead) and have a Growler or two backing you up.

However, I tend to prefer using JSOWs on most targets. I've even had F-35s Wild Weasel'ing it to find some of the more hidden Iranian SAMs and shoot them with said JSOWs.

As for recon, I rarely use the dedicated recon loadouts. For the most part, the SAM's threat level scales opposite of stealth.Thus, you can usually identify a site, whether by size or radar, before it has a decent chance of killing you. As for detecting aircraft at the airbase, an F-18 at 15,000 ft. shouldn't be shot at by manpads and gets the job done, at least in my experience.

But yeah, as far as real life goes, I have absolutely no idea.

[LineOfDeparture]

Your insights are very much appreciated. i tinkered a bit more with the same scenario. I have one save that I always load to try out different things against Char bahar.

1.) What are your experiences in terms of JSOWs survivability? From the Data sheet it looks like they are a bit to slow? Until now I only used the HARMs as SEAD main asset, I think it was three A/Cs worth a payloadto overwhelm a Grumble Btty incl. a Growler.

2.) My Strike package always gets flak from a hidden Gopher Batty NW of the airport. They do not emmitt, they use IR as it seems. in some tries, I do not even ID the threat. Any suggestion on how to deal with this sort of threat?

3.) The same Gopher shot down my Recon. It was overpassing the Airport at military speed and medium Alt (12k ft). that was probably too low. I just have no reference at what altitude the Pods are used best.....

And a random question: How do I find out the fuel state of Groups?

Thanks Qwerty for your contribution.

[Qwerty 2316]

Originally posted by Fulgrim:

Your insights are very much appreciated. i tinkered a bit more with the same scenario. I have one save that I always load to try out different things against Char bahar.

1.) What are your experiences in terms of JSOWs survivability? From the Data sheet it looks like they are a bit to slow? Until now I only used the HARMs as SEAD main asset, I think it was three A/Cs worth a payloadto overwhelm a Grumble Btty incl. a Growler.

2.) My Strike package always gets flak from a hidden Gopher Batty NW of the airport. They do not emmitt, they use IR as it seems. in some tries, I do not even ID the threat. Any suggestion on how to deal with this sort of threat?

3.) The same Gopher shot down my Recon. It was overpassing the Airport at military speed and medium Alt (12k ft). that was probably too low. I just have no reference at what altitude the Pods are used best.....

And a random question: How do I find out the fuel state of Groups?

Thanks Qwerty for your contribution.

1. Yeah, the JSOW is a bit slow, but the bomblet variant is an absolute beast if you can get it to connect with a SAM site. Plus, as the name says, it is a nice standoff weapon.

I actually think they nerfed it in one of the last few updates, you used to be able to kill an entire SAM battery if you hit it with a single one. Now it seems the bomblets are more likely to miss entirely.

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend attacking Growler's with them, but they are really nice for killing older SAMs/AAA/Anti-ship launchers.

2. Frankly, I never get close enough, or at least stay close enough, to let them use their flak or MANPADs. I usually just lob some LGBs or whatnot at the target (from max distance and altitude), then turn away before my aircraft reach any AAA's range. Really, I haven't had much trouble with them, and I don't know enough specifics of your situation.

3. According to wikipedia (I'm not in a position to launch the game), the Gopher can only hit things lower than 11,500 ft. So yeah, I would recommend staying around 15,000 to be safe. Other than that, it might be best to just shoot at potential targets even if you haven't ID'ed them. Bombs are a nice, cheap, way of getting rid of the most hazardous threats while not being too terrible if you waste a few on a crappy AAA gun. Actually, this is where the JSOWs can really come in handy if you are willing to spare a few.

Again, I almost never use the Pods, so I can't help with that. I recall the scenario having no weather, but it might be worthwhile to double check that.

4. Yeah, its really a shame that they didn't make an easy way to check fuel quantity in a group. However, if you turn on "Ghosted group members" in settings, you will at least be able to see the fuel bar under the unit. It usually gives you a rough idea. Otherwise, just get used to going into "Unit View" mode, I think its CTRL+V or something. Clicking on a single unit will give you an idea of the state of the entire group.

Hopefully this is somewhat helpful, I might have to launch up Brass Drum again when I get the chance and refresh my memory.

[LineOfDeparture]

Thanks a lot!

[Qwerty 2316]

Okay, so I opened it up for the ump-teenth time to remind myself how I normally do things. It is one of my favorite scenarios after all. Anyway, so, the biggest thing I noticed is that I don't usually care about the crappy SAMs and whatnot. If this was an invasion scenario, that might be a bit more important, but, as it stands, the only reason to target AAA and the like is to get a really small amount of points.

Anyway, so, in the case of Char Bahar, I flew in 2 groups of 4 F-18s with JDAMs, 2 groups of 3 F-18s with AARGMs, and a group of 2 F-18s with the AARGM and JSOW mix. Basically all of the starting loadouts. Oh, and a bunch of F-18s with AMRAAMs for CAP, but that is less important.

So, to start off, I threw most of the AARGMs at the Growler; sending a few at the other radars and saving 2 more in case of new threats. The AGMs did their jobs, and I used up the 4 JSOWs killing the remaining Growler units and a Skyguard AAA complex.

Then, I had the JDAMs target the control tower (I don't think it actually reduces efficiency, but I'm sure it would be a priority target in real operations), and the Tarmacs with hosted aircraft.
In hindsight, I should have bombed the AA units and JSOW'd the tarmacs, because I assume the bomblets would have been a lot more effective than the JDAMs, judging by the fact that only 1 enemy aircraft was killed by 7 or so bombs, who knows why. Well, actually, I do. The game still doesn't let you target individual aircraft on the ground, and instead kills aircraft based on percentage of Tarmac health or other voodo. While it might make sense for underground hangars, its retarded when you are attacking an open tarmac.

Anyway, I actually saved a flight of bombers to strike JASK, but there were more enemy aircraft than I had AMRAAMs, so I called it off.


For the sake of this thread (and to provide a damage report of the tarmacs), I sent over the Global Hawk that started the game loitering under pakistan. At 15000 ft, it was able to locate an extra SAM, AAA, and Mobile Jammer around Char Bahar, while not being shot at in return. When all my F-18s reload I will test out their recon capabilities, but I doubt they will perform all that much worse.

The bottom line is, there are very few threatening enemy units that you can't spot easily. There are a few, but they are in the minority. If it wasn't for some bad dice rolls on my side, I would have a perfect opportunity to use even more JDAMs against these new targets, but ohh well.


Actually, I thought of this when trying to go back and find the exact name for those SEAD missiles, but you have a few F-18s loaded out with TALDs. Next time you want to test out if an area has hidden SAMs, shoot a few of those off, and the SAMs should come flying.

Edit:
To answer your question about the number of SEAD missiles to use, I used 26 in the entire strike. I sent around 18 towards the Growler and 8 to the two other targets. It actually turned out to be overkill, but its always much better to use too many missiles than too few.
I probably only needed to use 20, but I would rather waste 6 missiles than potentially waste 20 and 6 hours.

Second Edit:
Hah, I just lost the UAV to some missile. That's what I get for being lazy and setting the altitude to 12k.

[LineOfDeparture]

Thank you very very much. That is some great information right there. I will make sure to test out the things you mentioned. As far as I know, only very few A/C are parked on the tarmac, that's why you probably have so few hits.

I am still tinkering with this Strike. Just to learn the game and all its mechanics. Great stuff indeed.

Do you have any idea how to actually see the damage in the scenario editor? I just can't inspect the damage I caused there, any idea?

[Qwerty 2316]

Originally posted by Fulgrim:

Thank you very very much. That is some great information right there. I will make sure to test out the things you mentioned. As far as I know, only very few A/C are parked on the tarmac, that's why you probably have so few hits.

I am still tinkering with this Strike. Just to learn the game and all its mechanics. Great stuff indeed.

Do you have any idea how to actually see the damage in the scenario editor? I just can't inspect the damage I caused there, any idea?

1. While there are only a few Aircraft, it still would realistically be a lot easier to get kills. The game narrowed the 4 aircraft down to 3 'Char Bahar A/C Tarmac Space (2x Large Aircraft)'s and the bombs would just be programmed to the coordinates of said aircraft anyway. I would kinda like to try out some LGBs, because that would prove that the calculations are messed up.

2. Yes, well, there are two ways to inspect damage. One, ofc, is to just fly a recon aircraft above the area, then click on the specific tarmac in unit view. While it is not completely accurate, it will give a rough assessment of the situation.

If you are cheating :P ,you can do the same thing, but it will give you the exact health percentage and amount of fire (and flooding). Unit view is by just pressing V, if you haven't already figured that out. CTLR+V turns on God mode, which will allow you to see the exact location and health percentage of enemy units without having to switch sides.

Also, if you are frustrated that you can kill any tarmacs or access points, don't worry, in a later update they made them extremely hard to kill to simulate repair efforts (but don't quote me on that). If you hit an access point a few times, it will keep it from doing its job anyway, same goes for a bunch of other stuff.

If you want to kill a runway unit itself, i'm pretty sure the only reasonable way is through nukes.

Edit: If you want to do recon, a Fire Scout at 15k works like a charm, though I still can't find that stupid SAM.

[LineOfDeparture]

okay, that helped. I can see now that the access points are heavily dmgd. So they operate at a reduced rate? Less Aircraft throughput?

I can absolitely see your point in regards to survivability of A/Cs in open parking...

[LineOfDeparture]

And BTW, when pressing "Damage Ctrl" in the unit display, nothing happens. Is that intended?

[Qwerty 2316]

I believe they just stop working. Its simulating that an aircraft couldn't go over a sufficiently cratered access point. Of course, unless you damage all of them, the aircraft can just use other ones, which may slow things down organically.

You can't view the damage control of enemy units, as it wouldn't really make sense for the US to know the specific things damaged on an enemy ship or whatnot. However, if you switch sides in the editor then click on it, a window should pop up. I don't really know what it would show you though; definately nothing too impressive, considering its basically just a strip of asphalt.

'Damage Control' isn't really an accurate label. It only shows the many parts of a ship/whatnot, and if they are damaged/heavily damaged/destroyed. It has nothing to do with actual damage control. Of course, depending on the unit skill, the amount of damage on a part will be reduced over time assuming it isn't destroyed.

[LineOfDeparture]

I think we made some real progress here, thanks again!

[Qwerty 2316]

Cool, glad I could help! If you figure anything cool out with your playthrough(s), be sure to tell me :)