Demo feedback

[operations_control]

First up, I want to emphasise that this has the bones of a great game. I'm also heartened by the responses offered by the dev to feedback, and the rapid rate at which my biggest issue so far has been resolved (the item descriptions obscuring the inventory, prior to hotfix 2).

That said, there are several elements that leave the game currently feeling rough around the edges; I'll try to explain the issues in enough detail to make them resolvable.

First up, the bow is a bit of an issue - the fact it roots you for so very long both before and after the shot makes it feel very cumbersome, especially by comparison to the magic bolt. Add to that the difficulties of connecting a shot (especially diagonally) due to what feel like strange hit-boxes on the enemy and it leads to the feeling that it's not a particularly good combat choice. In single-player, there's also an issue with the length of the wind-up frequently leading to your shots running into shots from ranged enemies, even when you've baited a missed shot from them. Is it intended behaviour that the magic bolt will obsolete bows once it's unlocked, and that it's balanced against firearms? Finally, I understand why there's a magazine-and-reload mechanism on the expectation of firearms, but it took a while to understand that this was what was happening with the bow - maybe it would be useful to flag what's happening a little more clearly?

Next up, one thing that's been a constant issue is the size of the item collection radius. It feels very small, with the need to stand on top of items to collect them, and makes gathering items a bit of a chore; I will admit that at first glance I assumed the 'Gathering tentacle' would increase the collection range rather than its actual purpose. Likewise, needing to tap E for every single item feels rather clunky, it might be better to allow holding down E to sequentially grab items in reach, or even grab everything at once.

Next on my list, while the idea of madness clouding the mini-map is really interesting, it does have a possibly unintentional interaction with corpse-runs: it's entirely possible to lose your mini-map at around half of the madness bar, and then to die (Yeah, I know, skill issue), and to end up in the awkward position of being unable to navigate back to your corpse without the map (due to the nature of random map generation, there's no guaranteeing distinctive landmarks), and unable to board the train to shed madness without losing everything you were carrying. While this can be handled by having a lot of tea in the supply chest, I was wondering if, given we're dreamers, you'd consider including a visual effect like a silver cord pointing the shortest route to the dead body (or even just its general direction) until the death-sack has been collected and emptied? It seems both thematic and user-friendly.

The next suggestion is one you've had from several people - the ability to re-bind keys would be superlatively helpful. The default binds really aren't super-helpful for a lefty, and since there's no standardised left-handed-layout, probably every player in that bracket has their own weird preferences. Just a small accessibility issue.

Speaking of controls, you're making a -lot- of use of the middle-mouse-button. Crafting and inventory management with it feels weird (why not use e?), and needing to hold it down to control the camera in the field is really quite awkward (it's a serious issue for anyone with tendon problems, for instance, as is the case for several of the people I regularly play with). I'd quite like either to have the camera controls also operable with keys (perhaps q and e?), or to have the camera-control on a toggle. The latter feels like it would be more comfortable to me, but people's mileage may well vary. Likewise, a toggle that would lock the camera behind the character's facing was requested by my fellow-players in my last multiplayer session; this would also be very helpful.

Going back to crafting and operating the benches - it feels like there was constantly an extra step in any given task that made every crafting and building task that little bit more clunky. For instance, perhaps it might be helpful for building if the style selection was behind a press-and-hold option, rather than clicking the base item and then selecting the variant in the menu that pops up vertically.

We also had some issues with combat: The hit-boxes, as previously mentioned, are often exceedingly janky, with some enemies seeming to have hit-boxes around their feet, some much further up on the body, and some that seem different depending on the angle the enemy's facing. Another issue with facing pops up with the vomiting crawler - several times it snapped 180 degrees from one aggressor to another, and immediately went into its vomit spray - it feels like that shouldn't happen, so maybe a glitch? Beyond that, there's not a lot of hit feedback. It's a bit of an issue with the enemy, though I understand you're using it as an indicator for when they're taking a damage type they're weak to, but I'd suggest tuning the feedback up for both stages - perhaps a bit of stagger if they're not weak, and some proper body-horror effects if we've hit a weakness. Similarly, more feedback when we're taking damage would be very helpful; I've had multiple deaths that felt like they came out of nowhere, because I didn't realise my attempts at evasion weren't succeeding whilst under enough pressure that I wasn't glancing up at the heart icon.

We also noticed that interactions between healing and food are a bit of an issue. I appreciate the fact that hunger can't drag you below half health, it's nice not to just flat starve to death if I'm AFK, but it means that if there's not enough food to go around (or I get distracted crafting) I end up wasting bandages hand-over-fist once I've eaten again. This compounds the issue of running out of bandages; it would be useful if rags were a more regular drop, for those of us who are (as previously noted) not always aware when we're taking damage. I wonder if it might be possible for being well-fed to allow you to regain the health lost to hunger at the same rate as you lost it? Not fast enough to be a particular benefit in combat, but a steady tick of replenishment, perhaps.

Finally, we found some issues with locating a cave - is this a random point of interest that can spawn on some maps, or is it a consciously placed item on some maps? If it's the former, it might be worth ensuring that it's a guaranteed spawn on the first section of track, so that the radio can always be repaired before the first town; if it's the latter, then an indicator (or a clearer one) on the mini-map might be use. Either way, it was rather dispiriting to reach and be turned away from the first town. Similarly, is there a way to turn the Railgod around? Does it happen automatically at the end of a line? We had a certain amount of stress at the idea of missing something and ending up losing an opportunity forever.

I understand that this may feel very critical; please understand that it's driven by the desire for this game to be the absolute best it can be! The setting and art-direction are delightful, and I hope it gets weirder as you go further in the full game. The ideas here are cracking, and we're eager to get more play in this strange and broken world. On a purely personal basis, I'd love to see more appearance customisation, especially with the armour pieces, since everyone will be wearing the same base items - I'd love to see styles ranging from turn-of-the-century Massachusetts fashion to Dreamlands-inspired or full-on Cultic outfits, not to mention weaponry from cavalry-sabres to yatagans, from gunslinger revolvers to a tommygun that fires teeth rather than bullets. Also, I'd really love it if you could put a decent turban in there somewhere.

I look forward to seeing how this game develops, and we'll keep playing as you drop more updates. Good luck, and keep your elder signs close.

[Troglobytes Games]

Hey operations_control,

thank you very much for your detailed feedback! It helps us a lot in this phase, so please keep it coming!

Originally posted by operations_control:

First up, the bow is a bit of an issue - the fact it roots you for so very long both before and after the shot makes it feel very cumbersome, especially by comparison to the magic bolt. Add to that the difficulties of connecting a shot (especially diagonally) due to what feel like strange hit-boxes on the enemy and it leads to the feeling that it's not a particularly good combat choice. In single-player, there's also an issue with the length of the wind-up frequently leading to your shots running into shots from ranged enemies, even when you've baited a missed shot from them. Is it intended behaviour that the magic bolt will obsolete bows once it's unlocked, and that it's balanced against firearms? Finally, I understand why there's a magazine-and-reload mechanism on the expectation of firearms, but it took a while to understand that this was what was happening with the bow - maybe it would be useful to flag what's happening a little more clearly?

I will not go into much detail here, just because we're completely refactoring how ranged combat works. We listened to players' feedback and combat is now waaay smoother (you're not locked in place anymore). The change has not been pushed live yet because it needs some more animation polishing/testing, but stay assured that it's coming really soon! Once you test it out, please let us know how it feels for you.

Originally posted by operations_control:

Next up, one thing that's been a constant issue is the size of the item collection radius. It feels very small, with the need to stand on top of items to collect them, and makes gathering items a bit of a chore; I will admit that at first glance I assumed the 'Gathering tentacle' would increase the collection range rather than its actual purpose. Likewise, needing to tap E for every single item feels rather clunky, it might be better to allow holding down E to sequentially grab items in reach, or even grab everything at once.

Noted! We already make the radius bigger, and making it even bigger is an easy task. About the gathering tentacle: your suggestion is really interesting, we'll see what we can do about it. Stay tuned!

Originally posted by operations_control:

Next on my list, while the idea of madness clouding the mini-map is really interesting, it does have a possibly unintentional interaction with corpse-runs: it's entirely possible to lose your mini-map at around half of the madness bar, and then to die (Yeah, I know, skill issue), and to end up in the awkward position of being unable to navigate back to your corpse without the map (due to the nature of random map generation, there's no guaranteeing distinctive landmarks), and unable to board the train to shed madness without losing everything you were carrying. While this can be handled by having a lot of tea in the supply chest, I was wondering if, given we're dreamers, you'd consider including a visual effect like a silver cord pointing the shortest route to the dead body (or even just its general direction) until the death-sack has been collected and emptied? It seems both thematic and user-friendly.

Again, very interesting take on the subject, though we were thinking more about a specific mechanic that will help you out with this. I will not spoil it here just because it's only an idea at the moment. We'll see!

Originally posted by operations_control:

The next suggestion is one you've had from several people - the ability to re-bind keys would be superlatively helpful. The default binds really aren't super-helpful for a lefty, and since there's no standardised left-handed-layout, probably every player in that bracket has their own weird preferences. Just a small accessibility issue.

This is in our top-prority list, though probably it's not going to come for this demo. We'll make sure to have it at launch! In the meantime, if you have a specific suggestion for default controls, we're listening! We know everyone has their own preferences, but maybe we missed something really big and generic.

Originally posted by operations_control:

Speaking of controls, you're making a -lot- of use of the middle-mouse-button. Crafting and inventory management with it feels weird (why not use e?), and needing to hold it down to control the camera in the field is really quite awkward (it's a serious issue for anyone with tendon problems, for instance, as is the case for several of the people I regularly play with). I'd quite like either to have the camera controls also operable with keys (perhaps q and e?), or to have the camera-control on a toggle. The latter feels like it would be more comfortable to me, but people's mileage may well vary. Likewise, a toggle that would lock the camera behind the character's facing was requested by my fellow-players in my last multiplayer session; this would also be very helpful.

We got this (camera rotation with MMB) from similar games (IIRC, V Rising does this). This should be fixed with controls rebinding, you'll be able to use whatever you feel more comfortable with.

Originally posted by operations_control:

Going back to crafting and operating the benches - it feels like there was constantly an extra step in any given task that made every crafting and building task that little bit more clunky. For instance, perhaps it might be helpful for building if the style selection was behind a press-and-hold option, rather than clicking the base item and then selecting the variant in the menu that pops up vertically.

Building is another thing that is a good candidate to be heavily refactored, though I cannot say much at this stage.

Originally posted by operations_control:

We also had some issues with combat: The hit-boxes, as previously mentioned, are often exceedingly janky, with some enemies seeming to have hit-boxes around their feet, some much further up on the body, and some that seem different depending on the angle the enemy's facing. Another issue with facing pops up with the vomiting crawler - several times it snapped 180 degrees from one aggressor to another, and immediately went into its vomit spray - it feels like that shouldn't happen, so maybe a glitch? Beyond that, there's not a lot of hit feedback. It's a bit of an issue with the enemy, though I understand you're using it as an indicator for when they're taking a damage type they're weak to, but I'd suggest tuning the feedback up for both stages - perhaps a bit of stagger if they're not weak, and some proper body-horror effects if we've hit a weakness. Similarly, more feedback when we're taking damage would be very helpful; I've had multiple deaths that felt like they came out of nowhere, because I didn't realise my attempts at evasion weren't succeeding whilst under enough pressure that I wasn't glancing up at the heart icon.

More feedback when getting hit (player): agree!

About the hit-boxes, that's weird, since they're quite standard. If you want, feel free to hop into our Discord server, I can show a few pics of what they look like and maybe we can understand better what's the problem.

The vomit guy: yeah, it snaps (and shouldn't!).

About everything else, probably it's not clear how it all works (and thus should be explained better).

Originally posted by operations_control:

We also noticed that interactions between healing and food are a bit of an issue. I appreciate the fact that hunger can't drag you below half health, it's nice not to just flat starve to death if I'm AFK, but it means that if there's not enough food to go around (or I get distracted crafting) I end up wasting bandages hand-over-fist once I've eaten again. This compounds the issue of running out of bandages; it would be useful if rags were a more regular drop, for those of us who are (as previously noted) not always aware when we're taking damage. I wonder if it might be possible for being well-fed to allow you to regain the health lost to hunger at the same rate as you lost it? Not fast enough to be a particular benefit in combat, but a steady tick of replenishment, perhaps.

Interesting, we'll think this out.

Originally posted by operations_control:

Finally, we found some issues with locating a cave - is this a random point of interest that can spawn on some maps, or is it a consciously placed item on some maps? If it's the former, it might be worth ensuring that it's a guaranteed spawn on the first section of track, so that the radio can always be repaired before the first town; if it's the latter, then an indicator (or a clearer one) on the mini-map might be use. Either way, it was rather dispiriting to reach and be turned away from the first town. Similarly, is there a way to turn the Railgod around? Does it happen automatically at the end of a line? We had a certain amount of stress at the idea of missing something and ending up losing an opportunity forever.

Yes, this can be quite confusing, but no need to stress out: the game is made so you cannot really miss anything, ever (if it happens, it's a bug and we want to know!). For example, if it says "find this at a Cave", stay assured that you will find that at a Cave, no matter which Cave it is. Levels are procedurally generated, so there are set rules that drive how things get spawned, where, when, etc.

You cannot "turn" the RailGod around, but you will be able to switch railways (if you noticed, there are Yellow and Red railway in the overworld map). This is something not available in the demo, but will be very pivotal in the full game.

Originally posted by operations_control:

I understand that this may feel very critical; please understand that it's driven by the desire for this game to be the absolute best it can be! The setting and art-direction are delightful, and I hope it gets weirder as you go further in the full game. The ideas here are cracking, and we're eager to get more play in this strange and broken world. On a purely personal basis, I'd love to see more appearance customisation, especially with the armour pieces, since everyone will be wearing the same base items - I'd love to see styles ranging from turn-of-the-century Massachusetts fashion to Dreamlands-inspired or full-on Cultic outfits, not to mention weaponry from cavalry-sabres to yatagans, from gunslinger revolvers to a tommygun that fires teeth rather than bullets. Also, I'd really love it if you could put a decent turban in there somewhere.

Oh, believe me, you will not be disappointed with the armors/outfits

Thank you very much for such a detailed feedback, we'll definitely use it to improve the game.

Best,

-- Troglobytes