Why Chloe doesn't have to die [Spoilers]

[Boss]

So a lot of people are convinced that Chloe has to die. The main evidence supporting this is that the supernatural events (eclipse, snow, etc.) seem to be the result of Max rewinding time and it seems that the universe wants Chloe to die, since she can die five times during the game (Nathan shoots her, she shoots herself, hit by a train, Jefferson shoots her, killed by Max in alt. timeline). Here's why I don't think she has to die:

• From a storytelling perspective, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to return to the girls' toilets in Episode 1 and let Chloe die. This means that all your choices in Ep 1-5 will be meaningless and it's basically a reset of the entire game. It will be like everything you did never happened. Chloe will die having no memory of Max reconciling their friendship. Long story short, this ending would suck and Dontnod can do better than that.
  
• It would be a cliché and predictable ending. It's pretty similar to the "The Butterfly effect" (the movie) plot and one of the writers even told us that he likes to "stick to clichés but then change it at the last minute".
  
• It would make Max's rewinding powers useless because they only cause evil (the tornado) and she has to rewind until the point where she uses the power for the first time, to apparantly fix it all. In other words: not using her power fixes everything. Then what's the point of this game? A lesson on how you shouldn't mess with time?
  
• I'm not convinced that Max is causing all the supernatural events. Note that when she rewinds to save William, ultimately nothing is changed in the normal timeline. She resets her change by travelling through the picture again so it'll be like nothing ever happened. Yet the dead whales still show up at the beach, which seems to be a step up from the dead birds, ergo: the tornado is getting closer. So I believe these events happen regardless of Max rewinding time. The snow at the end of Ep 1 also happens hours after Max saves Chloe from Nathan and in the events leading up to the snowfall, she doesn't rewind at all.

So I believe that Max got her powers to save Chloe and another force (ultimately in the shape of the tornado) is trying to kill Chloe and destroy Arcadia Bay. The ultimate goal of the game is to save Chloe and 'defeat' this other force, maybe by getting the Prescotts arrested and the dark room destroyed. It's possible that they're responsible for the tornado and do some dark ritual stuff.

I also believe that Rachel is the doe, butterfly and bird. It doesn't make sense that Chloe would be the butterfly for example and that she has the same powers as a dead person controlling an animal. Rachel likely had rewind powers as well and gave them to Max so she could save Chloe. The bird is simply watching over Chloe (or telling Max to seek help from/trust David) and the doe is obviously showing Max to Rachel's grave.

Regarding my first point from the bullet list, I also do not think we will rewind to anything further than events at the end of Ep 4. Everything that happened in Ep 1-4 (before the party) cannot be changed. Otherwise our choices would be meaningless.
We will probably escape the dark room and rewind to the party, but no further than that.

The ending of Ep 5 will probably depend on your relationship with Nathan, Victoria, Frank and David and offer some sort of confrontation with Jefferson and the Prescotts. Maybe there's a bad ending where Chloe dies but it won't be in the girls' toilets.

[Graf Zeppelin]

I like your points :) Everything fits well and I really hope we get a great episode 5 with plots like you wrote.

Originally posted by things that once was:

i read somewhere in another theroy that said Max has been dead the whole time, same with everyone in the town. She has these time abilities to relive her past to accept her death. that to me would be disapointment . if that happened. do you think max can use warrens pic and rewind from there also.

STOP SPREADING. You posted your theory in your own thread. Now you don't need to fire around with it in each other thread.

[Valdyr]

Because the writer likes to twist clichés and tropes, I think it's possible that Chloe is actually the only character absolutely guaranteed to survive. She could be a twist on the "Final Girl" trope that appears in a lot of horror movies--as the characters get picked off one by one, the last one left alive is the pure, virginal "good girl" who has to stand alone against the killer. With her attitude, drugs, porn, and general love of "sinful" things (including most probably being a lesbian, definitely hazardous in slasher movies), Chloe would be guaranteed to be one of the first teens to die in a stereotypical slasher film--so maybe that means she's the one who will survive all this despite the crazy circumstances.

[Boss]

Originally posted by Valdyr:

Because the writer likes to twist clichés and tropes, I think it's possible that Chloe is actually the only character absolutely guaranteed to survive. She could be a twist on the "Final Girl" trope that appears in a lot of horror movies--as the characters get picked off one by one, the last one left alive is the pure, virginal "good girl" who has to stand alone against the killer. With her attitude, drugs, porn, and general love of "sinful" things (including most probably being a lesbian, definitely hazardous in slasher movies), Chloe would be guaranteed to be one of the first teens to die in a stereotypical slasher film--so maybe that means she's the one who will survive all this despite the crazy circumstances.

Now you remind me of "The Cabin in the Woods" again. Every time I read a theory regarding rituals/Prescotts I think of that movie.

But yes, I agree that Chloe is probably guaranteed to survive in all (but one?) endings. The whole game is about her and Max. Maybe one of them has to make a sacrifice (and in a way, they already have, by going through these traumatic events), like Max needing to save Chloe over and over again for the rest of her life.

It's rather obvious, if you think about it.
- Jefferson was constantly established as the one good guy in Ep 1-3 and then turned out to be the killer
- Nathan was always the antagonist and there were a lot of hints in Ep 4 that he's a psychopath and behind it all, but he'll likely be another victim and (sort of) redeem himself in Ep 5
- Victoria was the obvious ♥♥♥♥♥, with Kate's video and all that, but in Ep 4 we see that she's not so bad and can actually befriend her
- Frank was the obvious drug dealer / evil person, but again in Ep 4 we see a different side of him
- Chloe seems predestined to die, so it seems logical that in Ep5 we'll learn that the opposite is actually true.
Dontnod keeps doing this with all of their characters. Looking back on it, it's actually kind of predictable what they're going to do.

[Valdyr]

Don't forget that David is set up as completely unsympathetic from the beginning, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought of David during the end-of-episode cutscenes showing rows of binders with girls' names, knowing how he spies on and compiles records on people, especially girls at Blackwell. But not only is David working to uncover the conspiracy, he's probably going to end up being a huge hero in episode 5 if Max can't just save herself.

In general, the "hard" (personally disadvantageous for Max) choices seem to always end up being "correct". Taking the hit (no pun intended) for Chloe's joint puts Max in hot water and she worries she could lose her scholarship, but it wins her points with both Chloe and David. Later, standing up for David pisses Chloe off but keeps him close, which is going to be important in episode 5. Not telling the principal about Nathan gets Max put under suspicion, but could pay off later as well. So far there hasn't been a choice I can think of where you were ultimately rewarded for being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to a person who immediately comes across like an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to you as soon as you meet them.

It would kind of be cool if the reverse were true, and thoughtlessly being nice to someone out of naivete could come back to bite Max and teach her a little about how the world works, and the importance of tempering compassion with reason, but we unfortunately don't have much story left.

[Follower Of The One True Zebra]

Chloe has to die. It's the only way she can be reunited with her love, Zebrahawk.

[Boss]

Originally posted by Valdyr:

Don't forget that David is set up as completely unsympathetic from the beginning, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought of David during the end-of-episode cutscenes showing rows of binders with girls' names, knowing how he spies on and compiles records on people, especially girls at Blackwell. But not only is David working to uncover the conspiracy, he's probably going to end up being a huge hero in episode 5 if Max can't just save herself.

In general, the "hard" (personally disadvantageous for Max) choices seem to always end up being "correct". Taking the hit (no pun intended) for Chloe's joint puts Max in hot water and she worries she could lose her scholarship, but it wins her points with both Chloe and David. Later, standing up for David pisses Chloe off but keeps him close, which is going to be important in episode 5. Not telling the principal about Nathan gets Max put under suspicion, but could pay off later as well. So far there hasn't been a choice I can think of where you were ultimately rewarded for being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to a person who immediately comes across like an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to you as soon as you meet them.

It would kind of be cool if the reverse were true, and thoughtlessly being nice to someone out of naivete could come back to bite Max and teach her a little about how the world works, and the importance of tempering compassion with reason, but we unfortunately don't have much story left.

How does it win Max points with David if she takes the hit for the joint? In my game he disliked Max from that point on and warned her that he never wanted to see her in the house again. Unless you mean that it prevents David from hitting Chloe?

But yes I agree that the hard choices seem to be best, like taking the handicapped fund money so you can give it to Frank.

Hopefully we'll have a similar situation with David as we had with Kate and Frank where previous choices can bite yo uin the ass and if you didn't get David kicked out of the house, he'll rescue you (and if you did, he gets shot or something).

[Silent J]

Originally posted by Bas:

So a lot of people are convinced that Chloe has to die. The main evidence supporting this is that the supernatural events (eclipse, snow, etc.) seem to be the result of Max rewinding time and it seems that the universe wants Chloe to die, since she can die five times during the game (Nathan shoots her, she shoots herself, hit by a train, Jefferson shoots her, killed by Max in alt. timeline). Here's why I don't think she has to die:

• From a storytelling perspective, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to return to the girls' toilets in Episode 1 and let Chloe die. This means that all your choices in Ep 1-5 will be meaningless and it's basically a reset of the entire game. It will be like everything you did never happened. Chloe will die having no memory of Max reconciling their friendship. Long story short, this ending would suck and Dontnod can do better than that.
  
• It would be a cliché and predictable ending. It's pretty similar to the "The Butterfly effect" (the movie) plot and one of the writers even told us that he likes to "stick to clichés but then change it at the last minute".
  
• It would make Max's rewinding powers useless because they only cause evil (the tornado) and she has to rewind until the point where she uses the power for the first time, to apparantly fix it all. In other words: not using her power fixes everything. Then what's the point of this game? A lesson on how you shouldn't mess with time?
  
• I'm not convinced that Max is causing all the supernatural events. Note that when she rewinds to save William, ultimately nothing is changed in the normal timeline. She resets her change by travelling through the picture again so it'll be like nothing ever happened. Yet the dead whales still show up at the beach, which seems to be a step up from the dead birds, ergo: the tornado is getting closer. So I believe these events happen regardless of Max rewinding time. The snow at the end of Ep 1 also happens hours after Max saves Chloe from Nathan and in the events leading up to the snowfall, she doesn't rewind at all.

So I believe that Max got her powers to save Chloe and another force (ultimately in the shape of the tornado) is trying to kill Chloe and destroy Arcadia Bay. The ultimate goal of the game is to save Chloe and 'defeat' this other force, maybe by getting the Prescotts arrested and the dark room destroyed. It's possible that they're responsible for the tornado and do some dark ritual stuff.

I also believe that Rachel is the doe, butterfly and bird. It doesn't make sense that Chloe would be the butterfly for example and that she has the same powers as a dead person controlling an animal. Rachel likely had rewind powers as well and gave them to Max so she could save Chloe. The bird is simply watching over Chloe (or telling Max to seek help from/trust David) and the doe is obviously showing Max to Rachel's grave.

Regarding my first point from the bullet list, I also do not think we will rewind to anything further than events at the end of Ep 4. Everything that happened in Ep 1-4 (before the party) cannot be changed. Otherwise our choices would be meaningless.
We will probably escape the dark room and rewind to the party, but no further than that.

The ending of Ep 5 will probably depend on your relationship with Nathan, Victoria, Frank and David and offer some sort of confrontation with Jefferson and the Prescotts. Maybe there's a bad ending where Chloe dies but it won't be in the girls' toilets.

Sorry to break this to you but the writers for the game's story finished thier work months ago. While 'we' have not seen it yet, it is quite set in stone and your points, as numerous and entertaining as they were are failing to account for DONTNOD having already completed their ending to the game as far as the narrative is concerned. I am also sorry to say you are wrong. And while I could site numerous theories and red herrings as you did I am content to sit back and let the game prove you wrong. Cheers!

[Boss]

Originally posted by Roose Bolton:

Sorry to break this to you but the writers for the game's story finished thier work months ago. While 'we' have not seen it yet, it is quite set in stone and your points, as numerous and entertaining as they were are failing to account for DONTNOD having already completed their ending to the game as far as the narrative is concerned. I am also sorry to say you are wrong. And while I could site numerous theories and red herrings as you did I am content to sit back and let the game prove you wrong. Cheers!

What does it matter that they finished their story? At what point did I suggest anything different?
My point is that they follow clichés and then change them at the last minute. So yes, it's likely that they planned all this from the start. Most of the characters turn out to be different than we expected. The fact that their story is finished doesn't mean that we cannot guess what will happen in the next episode, so what are you trying to say?

Also if you're gonna say "you are wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why" then no one is gonna take you seriously. I've already been proved right by the game so far. Jefferson was established as a good guy and they changed this at the last minute, at the end of Ep 4. Same with Victoria and Frank. So why the hell would I be wrong regarding Nathan and David? Maybe I could be wrong about Chloe but I'd be very surprised if my other predictions aren't correct.

[Silent J]

Originally posted by Bas:

Originally posted by Roose Bolton:

Sorry to break this to you but the writers for the game's story finished thier work months ago. While 'we' have not seen it yet, it is quite set in stone and your points, as numerous and entertaining as they were are failing to account for DONTNOD having already completed their ending to the game as far as the narrative is concerned. I am also sorry to say you are wrong. And while I could site numerous theories and red herrings as you did I am content to sit back and let the game prove you wrong. Cheers!

What does it matter that they finished their story? At what point did I suggest anything different?
My point is that they follow clichés and then change them at the last minute. So yes, it's likely that they planned all this from the start. Most of the characters turn out to be different than we expected. The fact that their story is finished doesn't mean that we cannot guess what will happen in the next episode, so what are you trying to say?

Also if you're gonna say "you are wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why" then no one is gonna take you seriously. I've already been proved right by the game so far. Jefferson was established as a good guy and they changed this at the last minute, at the end of Ep 4. Same with Victoria and Frank. So why the hell would I be wrong regarding Nathan and David? Maybe I could be wrong about Chloe but I'd be very surprised if my other predictions aren't correct.

I am sorry, did I need to be taken seriously? I thought this was Steam's LiS forum.

[Boss]

Originally posted by Roose Bolton:

Originally posted by Bas:

What does it matter that they finished their story? At what point did I suggest anything different?
My point is that they follow clichés and then change them at the last minute. So yes, it's likely that they planned all this from the start. Most of the characters turn out to be different than we expected. The fact that their story is finished doesn't mean that we cannot guess what will happen in the next episode, so what are you trying to say?

Also if you're gonna say "you are wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why" then no one is gonna take you seriously. I've already been proved right by the game so far. Jefferson was established as a good guy and they changed this at the last minute, at the end of Ep 4. Same with Victoria and Frank. So why the hell would I be wrong regarding Nathan and David? Maybe I could be wrong about Chloe but I'd be very surprised if my other predictions aren't correct.

I am sorry, did I need to be taken seriously? I thought this was Steam's LiS forum.

I've seen better trolling attempts.

[Boss]

Originally posted by ロスヴァイセ:

Depending on all your choices, it would be nice we could have those endings:

a) Max dies and Chloe stays alive.
b) Max stays alive while Chloe dies.
c) Both characters stay alive.
d) Both characters die and Prescott family keep doing all that bad stuff just for the sake of trying to teach us a nasty fable in the end.

Of course the most desired ones are either both stay alive or only one of them die if we cannot stop it and keep both alive just for dev's sake. But hey, with all those plot twists in this game, it would be nice to see that kind of bad ending just for once in the game. And it wouldn't matter that much since is just a parallel ending.

Yes these four endings would be nice.
They could also go for a good and a bad ending at the same time. There could be two timelines (with those two moons) you switch between in Ep 5. Perhaps in one of them Chloe dies and in the other she lives, making us question which dimension is 'real' and which isn't and whether the Max in the other timeline is also a part of her soul or not.

[Flagada]

from an ARTISTIC point of view, the fact that if the true ending is "max rewind to the bathroom and let Nathan Kill Chloe" it will be beautiful.
Because there is a message: you can't undo the life. Bad things happen. That's it.

[Boss]

Originally posted by angous:

from an ARTISTIC point of view, the fact that if the true ending is "max rewind to the bathroom and let Nathan Kill Chloe" it will be beautiful.
Because there is a message: you can't undo the life. Bad things happen. That's it.

I sort of agree. But I think a bittersweet ending would accomplish exactly the same. The problem with a full rewind ending is that Max getting her powers plus all the decisions you made become meaningless.

We already learned that we cannot really change anything. Max couldn't save William or Rachel. She could save Kate though and (potentially) help Frank. So I think we will also ultimately be able to save/help Chloe. Max cannot undo the past but she's able to manipulate small things in the close past/future.

[Graf Zeppelin]

Originally posted by angous:

from an ARTISTIC point of view, the fact that if the true ending is "max rewind to the bathroom and let Nathan Kill Chloe" it will be beautiful.
Because there is a message: you can't undo the life. Bad things happen. That's it.

This would also contain the message:
"You can either buy this game, or instead of you can watch the movie butterfly effect. This movie has like our game just 1 ending and it's crap."

[Graf Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Bas:

We already learned that we cannot really change anything. Max couldn't save William or Rachel. She could save Kate though and (potentially) help Frank. So I think we will also ultimately be able to save/help Chloe. Max cannot undo the past but she's able to manipulate small things in the close past/future.

Learned? We revived a bird and Chloe multiple times. Yeah of course these people/animal die anyway at the end of their life, but I wouldn't call the additional living time of Chloe "nothing changed".